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Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well. DomA Send a noteboard - 06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM
Also their connection with the Amayar whose "Water Way" lead to a different sort of mass suicide.


I thought of this too.

We know another purpose this event had (beside showing "the balance" effect surrounding the Cleansing.. its price, so to speak). The Amayar made one of the choices that would be before Rand at the end (kill himself to put an end to his suffering and avoid the LB, destroy Creation to put an end to it all, or become body and soul the Creator's Champion). Of course, the Amayar also replicated even more LTT's choice after his failure, and his Kinslaying beforehand. That's primarly what RJ meant to echo I guess... The taint brought the Kinslaying and LTT's suicide to escape in death his mission and from his suffering, the Amayar slayed their kin and committed suicide as saidin was getting cleansed.

Only RJ knew what sort of rebirth awaited them for what they've done though... there really seems to be payback in WOT - several characters have been "punished" or "rewarded" ironically by the Wheel for their actions/decisions (Elaida becoming a damane not the least,etc.), which hints at a mechanism not very far from the notion of karma being in place.

But then... the Amayar/Da'shain/Tuatha'an "religion" makes them awfully passive. It's a lot about surrendering free will and letting the Wheel weave you as it wills, like water in the sea, like a leaf on the wind (there's also big remnants of this in the Aiel culture... life is but a dream you must awake from (so being an eternal soul in limbo between lives is "reality";) is very close to the Time of Illusion doctrine). That would make those individuals the easiest for the Wheel to push and pull (ji'e'toh has a similar effect of "programming" some of your decisions) Perhaps it's part of the belief system to be "sacrificed" for balance's sake when the Wheel needs it. The Asha'man (and all the children with the spark) were all doomed to die but the Cleansing saved all of them; to allow for such a fundamental change in the Pattern (without tearing it apart, maybe?), the Amayar died in their place. Perhaps their prophecies were quite blunt about them having to die when the CK was used again. We might be doing them a big injustice when saying they did it to "escape" or avoid the suffering of the LB. It may rather be because the prophecies told them to, and they never go against "the current".

It's more than just idle thoughts, because I'm wondering if the Aiel/Tinkers (there's an awful big lot of them - a remnant of a remnant means a huge lot of people dying...) have not been similarly chosen by the Wheel to be a sacrificial lamb to balance the closing of the Bore. It's a very strange coincidence that two identified da'shain branches of three have to disappear from the Pattern, one when the Taint was undone, one likely when the Bore will be closed. If we follow that logic of "balance", the Breaking was the price paid to let the Wheel be able to adapt the Pattern to include the temporary sealing. Of course, this is also how ta'veren works. The Wheel need ta'veren to be able to achieve "macro changes", but there's a big lot of side effects around them to balance it out.
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Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan - 03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM 1802 Views
As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway. - 03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM 813 Views
Depends on how one defines Aiel - 04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM 762 Views
There are more than there were before. - 04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM 776 Views
But when the prophesy was made there many followers - 04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM 697 Views
The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM 773 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM 888 Views
Well that more than covers it *NM* - 05/04/2012 04:43:53 AM 378 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM 787 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM 967 Views
For the record I agree that the visions are not true either - 05/04/2012 02:25:47 PM 746 Views
Re: For the record I agree that the visions are not true either - 05/04/2012 11:36:53 PM 743 Views
Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well. - 05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM 675 Views
Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well. - 06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM 782 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 06/04/2012 10:51:00 PM 709 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM 958 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM 648 Views
Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel. - 07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM 640 Views
So what you're saying... - 07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM 577 Views
What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel - 08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM 648 Views
I never said it was. - 08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM 758 Views
Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been - 08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM 679 Views
No... - 08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM 796 Views
You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc - 08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM 754 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc - 08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM 775 Views
Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc - 08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM 596 Views
Thanks for that. - 09/04/2012 02:38:25 AM 551 Views
Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could - 08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM 739 Views
You are consistently making the same mistake. - 09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM 572 Views
They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel - 10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM 692 Views
No. They are not. - 10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM 592 Views
Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel - 10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM 617 Views
You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible. - 10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM 796 Views
No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel - 10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM 573 Views
All of which is entirely irrelevant. - 10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM 576 Views
Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant - 10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM 660 Views
Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant - 11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM 655 Views
That is what I just said - 14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM 610 Views
What is important about that? - 14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM 589 Views
The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand - 14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM 774 Views
So what you're saying is... - 14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM 626 Views
That's exactly it - 14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM 700 Views
Good. - 15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM 727 Views
He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it - 15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM 602 Views
Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever. - 15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM 674 Views
We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing - 15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM 603 Views
Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing - 17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM 744 Views
Depends on how you look at the Prophesy - 18/04/2012 01:45:23 PM 558 Views
Of course, but the point of my example was... - 17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM 568 Views
Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years? - 18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM 550 Views
Because that was the important part of that post. - 18/04/2012 05:28:10 PM 712 Views
Don't know when this became about winning - 19/04/2012 02:08:16 AM 495 Views
Re: I never said it was. - 18/04/2012 12:37:23 AM 738 Views
Re: As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway. - 04/04/2012 07:16:13 AM 806 Views
Re: As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway. - 06/04/2012 10:33:00 PM 695 Views
Thank you for that analysis. *NM* - 17/04/2012 12:36:08 AM 339 Views

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