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fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM

If you recall, my whole premise here is that one of the WoTs major themes is good people coming to epically bad ends because they believe everyone else too dishonest/stupid to be trusted with any pivotal part in saving the world.

Then I must ask you to exclude Egwene from this list:

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.
Even the fate of the world.

Like a creeping fungus, like insects in a swarm, the clouds had closed up above Tar Valon. The sunlight's visit had been welcome, but brief.
The tea was back to tasting stale again. The grain stores they'd discovered were running out, and the next sacks to come in had been filled with weevils. The Land is One with the Dragon.

"Yes," Nynaeve said. "The Aiel say he's embraced death."
"I've heard that from them, too," Egwene said. "But I looked into his eyes, and something else has changed, something inexplicable. The man I saw . . ."
"He didn't seem like one to destroy Natrin's Barrow?" Siuan shivered as she thought of that.
"The man I saw wouldn't need to destroy such a place," Egwene said. "Those inside would just follow him. Bend to his wishes. Because he was"

An aspect of that is that by restricting that to the Nialls, Elaidas and Siuans of Randland makes it harder to catch, and that subjecting even (especially) a protagonist to it drives the message home nicely. Egwenes case is particularly striking; she even thinks the DRAGON REBORN incompetent to act without her hands firmly on the reins (regardless of trivial things like 3000 years of prophecy.)

Quote for me the Prophesy which says, "The Dragon is always right. Do not oppose him! Shut the f*ck up, and bow to his every whim!". By your yardstick, Nynaeve was wrong to stop Rand from destroying Far Madding. Cadsuane was wrong to try and change the way Rand viewed his role. Perrin was wrong to question Rand's treatment of the Aes Sedai. Logain was wrong to not accept Rand's word that Taim was alright.

Each of these people disagreed with Rand greatly. Some of them took extreme measures to make him change his mind. Do you think they're all headed for a fall?

That approach is only effective precisely BECAUSE she is not evil. If she does experience an epic fall, being turned to the Shadow is likely to figure prominently in that, given how often the subject has come up around her in the series.

It has come up once. And in that foreshadowing, she blasted through those seeking to turn her and merrily went on her way to rescue Rand...

However, it would not be that she falls because she is evil, but that she is turned to evil because she falls. She would make a pretty "bad ass" Dreadlord at the Last Battle; what if her character development has set her up for THAT...?

Except there is no evidence for that. Save your claim of "repeated" (but actually a single half-baked) foreshadowings of her being turned, there has been no indication this is happening. Not to mention that Brandon's statement that at her current state, her character has been fully developed to be bad ass in the Last Battle. If there was a fall from grace and a forced turning to come, he wouldn't have said she is done developing and ready for the end game!
Like I say, I think it is even money, but dismissing it out of hand based on the evidence we have strikes me as presumptuous.

It is not even money. Dude, you're blatantly ignoring the author's own words on the subject. That doesn't make it "even money", that makes it "desperate clinging to biased position despite facts to the contrary".
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The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Nate - 03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM 4856 Views
It's pretty damn cool. Stephen - 03/05/2012 03:59:36 PM 2500 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Artsapat - 03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM 2639 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Nate - 03/05/2012 04:17:19 PM 2610 Views
the pit of doom is hot alanna aes sedai - 12/06/2012 01:57:18 AM 2112 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. Tweak - 03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM 2662 Views
yes. I sincerely doubt she has that kind of competency LadyLorraine - 03/05/2012 05:52:22 PM 2529 Views
Re: I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. Vidarfe - 04/05/2012 11:10:49 AM 2375 Views
Heh - Cannoli-baiting *NM* HousealThor - 04/05/2012 04:46:51 PM 1914 Views
*NM* Tweak - 05/05/2012 09:04:15 PM 1833 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Bored - 03/05/2012 05:06:19 PM 2278 Views
I really like it LadyLorraine - 03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM 2555 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong HyogaRott - 03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM 2300 Views
something like this? guttering flame - 03/05/2012 06:46:59 PM 2851 Views
well, for one, I didn't say it was "wrong" so don't jump down my throat. LadyLorraine - 04/05/2012 10:03:06 PM 2422 Views
If you think that was jumping down your throat... seriously... *NM* HyogaRott - 07/05/2012 01:51:45 PM 2046 Views
when I initially read it, it came off that way. I apologize if I misinterpreted you. *NM* LadyLorraine - 09/05/2012 04:58:13 PM 1974 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!) djwilson300 - 04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM 2300 Views
oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward. LadyLorraine - 04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM 2227 Views
Me, too! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 12/05/2012 01:18:06 AM 2350 Views
Well... DomA - 03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM 2642 Views
I think it is EG and Nyn HyogaRott - 03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM 2335 Views
Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn NaClH2O - 03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM 2393 Views
Yeah... DomA - 03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM 2310 Views
when did Nynaeve cut her hair? Onarishma - 08/05/2012 07:33:04 PM 3801 Views
It was burned off during her testing for the shawl. alanna aes sedai - 12/06/2012 02:53:43 AM 3040 Views
Egwene is a distinct possibility... fionwe1987 - 03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM 2447 Views
She is DomA - 04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM 2540 Views
I don't know... fionwe1987 - 04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM 2272 Views
Re: I don't know... DomA - 04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM 2420 Views
I'm not disagreeing with most of that... fionwe1987 - 08/05/2012 02:58:53 AM 2147 Views
"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" Joel - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM 2370 Views
What books have you been reading? fionwe1987 - 11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM 2384 Views
Egwene made many things "clear;" I dug up all the ToM quotes for a post near this time last year Joel - 11/05/2012 01:12:05 PM 2201 Views
I agree DomA - 11/05/2012 02:51:38 PM 2485 Views
The other quotes you requested, as promised. Joel - 13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM 2459 Views
You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting... fionwe1987 - 13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM 2150 Views
Agreed Sidious - 13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM 2254 Views
Exactly... fionwe1987 - 13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM 2232 Views
Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong. Joel - 14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM 2286 Views
fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM 2185 Views
Re- Joel - 21/05/2012 02:43:49 AM 2655 Views
Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. Joel - 14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM 2261 Views
Then she wouldn't be a "protagonist" fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 04:38:34 AM 2219 Views
Again, I never said she is or will become evil. Joel - 21/05/2012 03:03:32 AM 2359 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. Sidious - 14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM 2330 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. Joel - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM 2155 Views
For the most part, very little interpretation was required. Joel - 14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM 2375 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM 2561 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. DomA - 14/05/2012 06:41:32 AM 2327 Views
Yeah... fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 07:47:16 AM 2328 Views
Re: Yeah... DomA - 14/05/2012 04:40:49 PM 2391 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. Joel - 21/05/2012 06:21:48 AM 2303 Views
Look at their foreheads Tor - 16/05/2012 08:38:51 AM 2388 Views
Re: I think it is EG and Nyn DomA - 03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM 2349 Views
I could be wrong, but I believe Rand used Calandor as a sword in the Stone. HyogaRott - 03/05/2012 08:06:45 PM 2169 Views
I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too Sidious - 03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM 2198 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too DomA - 03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM 2335 Views
Idea Timthetrolloc - 04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM 2326 Views
Re: Idea Vidarfe - 04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM 2304 Views
Or.... Artsapat - 04/05/2012 12:19:16 PM 2170 Views
This would explain the hidden hand PatAtt - 04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM 2338 Views
That's a good point. Nate - 04/05/2012 08:59:41 PM 2465 Views
Nah... HyogaRott - 07/05/2012 01:56:13 PM 2395 Views
Can you draw a blade guttering flame - 08/05/2012 06:00:28 AM 2327 Views
It depens on the construction of the scabbard HyogaRott - 10/05/2012 01:36:30 PM 2241 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too Sidious - 04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM 1403 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too DomA - 04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM 2434 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too Sidious - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM 2255 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too DomA - 07/05/2012 09:32:45 PM 2469 Views
Thanks! *NM* Sidious - 13/05/2012 10:56:06 AM 2223 Views
I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing. Joel - 11/05/2012 01:35:34 PM 2342 Views
Re: I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing. DomA - 11/05/2012 04:06:50 PM 2119 Views
Egwene-Mat... fionwe1987 - 11/05/2012 09:05:07 PM 2204 Views
Re: Egwene-Mat... DomA - 12/05/2012 05:31:29 AM 2552 Views
Egwenes problem is her knack for seeing the error of her ways without ever LEARNING it. Joel - 13/05/2012 04:57:27 AM 2504 Views
The Seanchan assassin... fionwe1987 - 13/05/2012 11:47:53 AM 2132 Views
You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. Joel - 14/05/2012 02:08:26 AM 2203 Views
Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. fionwe1987 - 14/05/2012 04:08:11 AM 2239 Views
Re: You do realize she drew her own (false but firm) conclusions based on a dearth of data. Again. Joel - 21/05/2012 01:59:15 AM 2248 Views
looks a little 'naughty pirate novel' but is pretty fricken awesome! *NM* Yunalesca - 03/05/2012 06:50:42 PM 1842 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Gartax - 03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM 2198 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. Nate - 03/05/2012 07:36:09 PM 2305 Views
It's his left hand Rand lost *NM* DomA - 03/05/2012 08:00:01 PM 1858 Views
Thanks for the imput! *NM* Gartax - 03/05/2012 08:24:59 PM 2228 Views
I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine Skeeve the Great - 03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM 2273 Views
Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... DomA - 03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM 2413 Views
Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... Skeeve the Great - 03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM 3253 Views
Am I the only one who sees the red dot in her forehead? *NM* Milla - 09/05/2012 08:36:53 PM 1886 Views
looks *$%$%*@ great *NM* mogi67 - 04/05/2012 02:47:00 AM 1969 Views
i quite like it! as far as the women go... wolfsister - 04/05/2012 06:38:10 PM 2395 Views
No Maidens of the Spear Knightscape - 05/05/2012 05:09:27 PM 2408 Views
Re: No Maidens of the Spear HyogaRott - 07/05/2012 02:02:36 PM 2505 Views
nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM* Onarishma - 08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM 1775 Views
Nyn cut her braid off. *NM* Artsapat - 08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM 2011 Views
I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM* guttering flame - 08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM 851 Views
Right, my mistake. Then she cut her hair to make it straight again. *NM* Artsapat - 08/05/2012 08:54:33 PM 1914 Views
I don't remember this at all *NM* Onarishma - 08/05/2012 07:51:04 PM 2001 Views
Regarding the identities of the women on the back: Nate - 09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM 2481 Views
What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM* Skeeve the Great - 10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM 1939 Views
A misplaced logo? *NM* guttering flame - 10/05/2012 08:24:52 AM 1888 Views
Possibly one of the Seals? Joel - 11/05/2012 01:42:13 AM 2302 Views
It's Michael Whelan's signature. I looked it up and found it in a different book cover *NM* Deadsy - 11/05/2012 07:05:22 AM 1860 Views
agreed Sidious - 10/05/2012 07:16:39 AM 2389 Views
Partially concur HyogaRott - 10/05/2012 01:17:31 PM 2197 Views
She's in the Pit of F*ing Doom. Ben Stein would be excited *NM* Deadsy - 12/05/2012 04:22:44 AM 829 Views
i agree with the big about how Moiraine should be depicted LadyLorraine - 12/05/2012 11:04:53 PM 1226 Views
you can see a second weapon in Rand's belt too Yunalesca - 13/05/2012 08:51:34 PM 1193 Views
That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers A Deathwatch Guard - 26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM 1028 Views
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