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My opinion Cannoli Send a noteboard - 02/10/2009 01:30:12 AM

RJ said that the best Forsaken generals were Demandred, Be'lal and Sammael. Rahvin was also okay.

Mesaana and Semirhage were stated as being 'average at best'.

Do you think this is an accurate depiction of female skills? Are women inferior tactical and strategic visionaries in war?

Tylee Kirgan. Birgitte. And Jordan frequently talks about which women are able to win "stones." He does not seem to think they lack the tactical ability.

It still seems to be less of a female occupation, which accounts for the lack of stellar women in that role. Though I suppose a case could be made for the RJmoodiness.

I would have loved to pummel Elayne after she gets her AS killed by the black ajah and then talks about how she's sad but not guilty. That there was no way to know they were there. Bullshit! It's called thorough surveillance.


Read New Spring and Lord of Chaos. Moiraine scoffs at the liklihood of Lan & Bukama spying on a sister undetected, and they are both elite, highly trained warriors, used to sneaking up on Shadowspawn on their own turf. Surveillance my ass. And read what Niall says about his rules for information: "Never wait to know everything. The man who waited to know everything was still sitting in his tent when the enemy burned it over his head." Elayne has learned that a very dangerous man was inserted into her entourage using murder as a diversion, and that he reports to someone who commands the services of two black sisters. What about that scenario tells you to "wait and see" and look around some more?! This is a blatantly obvious scenario and the only way anyone can find any fault in her actions (fault I notice that no one, from a Hero of the Horn of Valere, to a Black Sister who would have seized on ANY reasoanble excuse to delay the operation, to a woman who is possibly the most experienced living member of the "Battle Ajah" could find in the mission going into it) is through hindsight. There was no way to anticipate a group no one knew was even in the city coming to the aid of Shiane's cell. If someone read Shiane's & her Black pets & Hanlon's minds, they would not have known Chesmal, Asne & co. were keeping an eye out. The Forsaken themselves didn't know what that group was up to. What was Elayne supposed to do? Allow several more Kinswomen to be murdered while waiting to see if "surveillance" would turn up any more Black sisters in the city? Elayne didn't even know if she would still hold the city for the next few days, as she was already anticipating an attack by numbers she could not match on a bribed gate in the near future! Was she supposed to take a chance on letting the very women she had been sent out of the Tower to pursue out of her hands? Even if she thought there were more Black sisters, sitting around like a little chickenshit wotmaniac was simply not an option. She had no way of knowing they might have an AoL weapon that could take channelers out in a second with no warning. If her going after the Black sisters was foolhardy, what do you call Rand going after the Forsaken when everyone had to be assuming they had access to AoL tech if anyone did?

Basically Elayne took every possible precaution, and the price she paid was cheap for what she got. Half a dozen Black sisters out of action, the traitor in her group exposed and eliminated, Adeleas avenged, a pair of high-ranking Darkfriends in custody, and for no more than a useless Brown who is a rather bad judge of character and possessed of no particular assets. It was obvious from the time Adeleas died that Vandene was on a suicide run and would not long survive uncovering her sister's killer. Elayne no more got her killed than Adeleas did.

What should she have done to prevent what happened? Bring more sis- oh wait! She didn't have anyone else? Bring the Kin? With no combat experience, they'd have been liabilities. More troops? How could soldiers of Kinswomen have stopped the Black sisters from sneaking up on them, and killing them where they stood? The only reason Vandene lived long enough to avenge her sister or Sareitha lived long enough to groan, was that they were in the field of fire with Elayne, whom the Black sisters wanted alive. Asne boasted of her weapon's capabilities - she could have killed all four sisters just as easily as she stunned them. She could have done the same to a cordon of guards, and if they had brought Birgitte & the other warders in, Birgitte would have joined the casualty lists. Absolutely NOTHING Elayne could have done could have stopped what happened aside from racking up a higher body count for the good guys, aside from arresting Chesmal & friends thanks to some magical intuition of their presence in Caemlyn.

This blaming Elayne for not being omnipotent is really tiresome, considering it flys in the face of actual proven events.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Sidious on 02/10/2009 at 05:00:19 AM
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Are women really bad generals? - 01/10/2009 07:05:03 PM 1521 Views
I think that all we can conclude from this... - 01/10/2009 07:39:49 PM 816 Views
No. - 01/10/2009 07:41:35 PM 956 Views
Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... - 01/10/2009 08:40:47 PM 1044 Views
Lol... too true - 01/10/2009 09:32:29 PM 936 Views
And you guys whine about the lameness of RJ's villains? - 01/10/2009 09:41:54 PM 952 Views
I still haven't seen proof of Demandred or Ishamael's "brilliance". - 01/10/2009 09:56:41 PM 777 Views
Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice - 02/10/2009 04:25:37 AM 752 Views
Re: Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice - 02/10/2009 03:48:13 PM 680 Views
but you are difficult to please - 02/10/2009 05:10:13 AM 730 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please - 02/10/2009 03:46:56 PM 679 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please - 03/10/2009 06:17:21 AM 683 Views
But they are lame... they've done minimal damage to the Light - 02/10/2009 05:06:05 AM 681 Views
You can't have it both ways.... - 02/10/2009 06:47:21 AM 766 Views
Why not? - 02/10/2009 08:45:35 AM 725 Views
Re: Why not? - 02/10/2009 04:27:00 PM 626 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 06:34:16 AM 747 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 07:40:16 AM 687 Views
Re: Why not? - 03/10/2009 05:07:51 PM 662 Views
Yeah - 01/10/2009 09:57:01 PM 716 Views
Re: Yeah - 01/10/2009 10:40:28 PM 750 Views
I thought the same in the past... - 02/10/2009 07:01:18 AM 727 Views
Gah! Hate! - 02/10/2009 04:11:49 PM 739 Views
Ah, come on... - 02/10/2009 04:41:37 PM 710 Views
No no, I was just being pouty that I haven't read the new stuff yet. - 02/10/2009 05:01:15 PM 725 Views
Yeah, I can understand that! - 03/10/2009 12:23:25 PM 576 Views
Unless... - 01/10/2009 10:49:55 PM 781 Views
Re: Unless... - 02/10/2009 05:07:14 AM 810 Views
Well, it's entirely hypothetical, - 02/10/2009 06:31:32 AM 691 Views
Re: Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... - 01/10/2009 09:51:30 PM 800 Views
What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 04:28:49 AM 754 Views
Re: What about Mat and Ituralde? - 02/10/2009 03:52:24 PM 695 Views
Good points! Also, these "generals" haven't actually fielded any troops - 01/10/2009 11:23:40 PM 683 Views
Further... - 02/10/2009 12:14:44 AM 713 Views
But as individuals they are meant to be deadly too - 02/10/2009 05:09:21 AM 675 Views
Just one point ^_^ - 03/10/2009 12:51:50 AM 701 Views
nope - 01/10/2009 08:06:57 PM 806 Views
Re: nope - 01/10/2009 09:32:38 PM 901 Views
Tylee Kirgan, Birgitte, and one other, Egeanin - 01/10/2009 09:47:00 PM 1108 Views
Birgitte's not a soldier though. - 01/10/2009 10:10:50 PM 701 Views
She says she's not, but so does Mat. - 01/10/2009 10:34:04 PM 618 Views
Mat's not a soldier, either - he's a general - 01/10/2009 10:51:29 PM 760 Views
Right, which was what we were discussing at first. - 02/10/2009 04:13:43 PM 704 Views
Yeah, I'm supporting your point about them both being generals - 02/10/2009 06:10:31 PM 712 Views
true, but she does pretty good - 02/10/2009 01:06:03 AM 755 Views
Oooh I forgot she's in charge of Elayne's lady guards. - 02/10/2009 03:22:57 AM 636 Views
Egeanin or Leilwin - 01/10/2009 10:35:53 PM 832 Views
A ship captain is like a calvary general - 02/10/2009 01:24:37 AM 691 Views
Right. - 02/10/2009 01:36:59 AM 691 Views
Well said. (And its short and to the point.) - 02/10/2009 03:54:23 AM 809 Views
Birgitte is too cautious to be better than an adequate tactician. - 02/10/2009 04:22:45 AM 739 Views
Isn't this more of an outgrowth or her respective specialty? - 07/10/2009 08:40:46 PM 661 Views
My opinion - 02/10/2009 01:30:12 AM 1107 Views
That's a poor excuse - 02/10/2009 11:59:42 AM 643 Views
That's a poor argument - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM 865 Views
Re: That's a poor argument - 03/10/2009 04:26:55 AM 724 Views
I disagree - 02/10/2009 04:26:28 PM 743 Views
Re: I disagree - 02/10/2009 08:31:29 PM 939 Views
Oh, puh-lease. - 02/10/2009 09:09:30 PM 887 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 04:52:37 PM 706 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 03/10/2009 08:26:27 PM 599 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. - 05/10/2009 05:08:27 PM 3161 Views
I always know I've out-argued an idiot when they fall back on the tired old "RJ wanted it that way" - 06/10/2009 04:42:11 AM 750 Views
um - 08/10/2009 07:36:52 PM 992 Views
Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst - 04/10/2009 07:28:36 AM 798 Views
Men and football. - 05/10/2009 04:49:35 PM 719 Views
It's the only thing men are allowed to do in Randland - 02/10/2009 03:09:19 AM 732 Views
My thoughts - 02/10/2009 03:12:46 PM 663 Views
.... - 04/10/2009 03:38:44 AM 652 Views

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