Active Users:567 Time:02/08/2025 06:16:34 AM
Re: How that CAN be interpreted however, is... DomA Send a noteboard - 02/05/2014 09:39:06 PM

Full disclosure: I'm a good friend of Terez, so we've discussed the matters a bit, but she didn't discuss with me in very specific details the strength matters much more than she did tell you.

A few things. That she told me, she hasn't seen the bell curve graphs, the formulas and all. Harriet is probably still using those files and lists. T. could't give them to us anyway if she had gotten them, as they could turn out in the Encyclopedia for all we know.

However, RJ apparently often "mused" to himself in notes, and "reasoned aloud", so his initial distribution of channelers and their strengths among Aiel had that and some expanded calculations, and relations to the bell curve. Apparently it confirms all he said about % and such. The WO simply train a greater range of the bell curve than the AS would, probably closer to what the AOLers did. Thus this would confirm its function was the distribution of all abilities, from Lanfear down to a level so low we've never seen anyone from it.

The only evidence that Moiraine could be at the bottom level of RJ's list (but it's more probably "very near" the bottom as her ability isn't inexistant), is that

1) She has the lowest numbers found so far
2) She's below a level under which a woman should not sense the source clearly enough to be trained to embrace it. But she's trained, so all she needs is an angreal to be able to channel as efficiently as before.

The bell curve helped determine strength distribution and rarity and turn it into numbers of characters, for every group. Stats differed between groups and between men and women as several factors varied.

To reconstruct the system, there's a bit of speculation involved.

It appears that RJ initially ranked the sisters from level 1 (Moiraine) to level 21 (unknown sister, but perhaps someone seen in books 2-3-4.. or who didn't appear on screen before the system changed. I suspect it could be one of the Namelles).

Later on, it appears he might have cheated - he could as he had not specified yet who was at the bottom and his references to novices and numbers were still quite vague - and decided to lower the WT standards to have sisters as weak as Daigian (to make a point they were hardly useless, Daigian was weak but one of the finest White logicians?). The lowest level to be allowed to try for Accepted speculatively got lowered, and the same for the level to test for the shawl. It seems that he added 12 levels below the former weakest sister and put Daigian there. Most established women didn't change strength, but someone formerly "off the charts" like Morgase likely dropped a great deal.

This very possibly happened when he prepared to write TSR and determined the size of the Aiel clans and how many WO they had per sept, then how many could be channelers. The statistics showed him they had much greater probabilities of having strong women alive, and in some numbers, so he had to bring into play some "Forsaken class" women. Furthermore, he had decided Moiraine/Egwene would follow Rand to the Waste and meet the WO. That wasn't his first plan, apparently. Rand went alone and brought the Aiel back to take the Stone.

Anyway...that may well be when he decided he had better cover the whole bell curve and add the 12 +x levels above Moiraine to cover all the way up to Lanfear, as he now had to make comparisons between and keep track of women stronger than Moiraine other than Nyaneve + Egwene/Elayne, whose strengths he could keep straight in his head. He likely added all the levels below 21 that he needed to cover the curve all the way to someone having a null ability.

The +x system he must have introduced for the intuitively obvious reasons: the strength of sisters already appeared in a ton of notes, if he renumbered things, the risks of missing one # in a file he used and using a wrong number as he wrote were too high. He had to keep those numbers as they were, and his system to calculate behaviors between AS was all conceived, so again he had to keep the ranges of strengths covered by each levels the same as they were (by all internal evidence, the range covered by one step is probably constant, ie: RJ judged the logical behavior of every sister by simply counting how many steps separated them. x steps = deference, y steps = obedience etc. Cadsuane is x steps from Merise, and x steps from Nynaeve etc. He used it that way even for +( characters like Elayne and Cadsuane vs. non plus x ones, so it looks somewhat doubtful the range covered by a step increases the stronger women get, otherwise he simply had to logically reflect that growth curve in the numbering of his levels to still be able to make comparisons at a glance. That he didn't do that but used linear numbering like the first system suggests, but I guess doesn't prove yet, it's linear.

So on the one hand RJ added (+ levels to maintain his existing sisters at the levels they appeared in the notes. He also introduced a second number for each woman, also linear (+1 per step), to rank everyone from Lanfear 1+12) all the way to a speculative bottom level (70? 100? It's impossible to be sure. Moiraine's the lowest known).

The "old style" number let him compare anyone to an Aes Sedai, the new numbering let him know where each woman stood globally.

The new numbers corresponded in turn to (greatly rounded up) life expectancy ranges. Those LER# corresponded in turn to an aging factor (%) and the start of slowing. This all determined mathematically the physical appearance of sisters, WO, Forsaken women after RJ compensated those numbers for the Binder effect, for the harshness of the Waste or life at sea, etc.

The comparisons between aging factors might reveal if the scale is linear or follows some curve or is somewhat exponential, but maybe it won't. From what I've heard there's really not a great deal of difference between the life expectancy of people on the 12 (+ levels or even between them vs. Elaida level sisters, while there is about 3 times that gap between Elaida and Daigian. I don't know what you math-heads can make out of just that, though...

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One Power strength: New information from RJ's notes - 01/05/2014 11:39:32 PM 4388 Views
interesting. i wonder what else they'll dig up - 01/05/2014 11:46:19 PM 1764 Views
College of Charleston library - 02/05/2014 12:21:01 AM 1857 Views
Still... really cool, thanks! *NM* - 03/05/2014 06:35:05 PM 972 Views
Mesaana - 02/05/2014 12:26:19 AM 1827 Views
Re: Mesaana - 02/05/2014 12:37:52 AM 1888 Views
Danelle - 02/05/2014 12:59:51 AM 1764 Views
Interesting... - 02/05/2014 05:13:44 PM 1829 Views
Re: Mesaana - 26/05/2015 10:21:33 PM 1380 Views
Bringing it all together... - 02/05/2014 10:34:12 AM 1751 Views
Can't accept that, sorry... - 02/05/2014 03:17:05 PM 1817 Views
How that CAN be interpreted however, is... - 02/05/2014 03:38:38 PM 1491 Views
Sorry, no... - 02/05/2014 06:00:56 PM 1519 Views
Here are some key flaws, unfortunately... - 02/05/2014 07:56:53 PM 1404 Views
Sorry, you're mistaking the Tower for the world... - 02/05/2014 09:50:23 PM 1452 Views
Re: Sorry, you're mistaking the Tower for the world... - 02/05/2014 09:59:45 PM 1454 Views
Not totally accurate - 17/05/2015 11:15:30 PM 1361 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 03:23:08 PM 1526 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 08:22:13 PM 1356 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 09:16:51 PM 1667 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 06/06/2015 03:48:34 PM 1346 Views
Re: How that CAN be interpreted however, is... - 02/05/2014 09:39:06 PM 1663 Views
Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 02/05/2014 09:57:37 PM 1532 Views
Ahh, the Rand with Egwene and Elayne scene... - 02/05/2014 10:19:05 PM 1734 Views
Re: Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 02/05/2014 10:45:12 PM 1595 Views
About that... - 02/05/2014 10:48:18 PM 1444 Views
Re: About that... - 02/05/2014 11:12:01 PM 1583 Views
Re: About that... - 17/05/2015 03:07:22 AM 1341 Views
Re: Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 05/06/2015 03:16:50 PM 1585 Views
Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 10:24:02 PM 1487 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 11:09:16 PM 1378 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 11:36:55 PM 1543 Views
More on Aiel learners - 03/05/2014 12:46:19 AM 1538 Views
Interesting. - 03/05/2014 02:32:23 AM 1435 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 03/05/2014 01:02:23 AM 1509 Views
Oh... - 03/05/2014 02:35:08 AM 1464 Views
Re: Oh... - 03/05/2014 04:29:34 AM 2016 Views
Can you clarify something here Dom/Terez? - 07/05/2014 01:31:54 AM 1519 Views
Re: Can you clarify something here Dom/Terez? - 07/05/2014 02:59:42 AM 1676 Views
Thanks Dom, I'm genuinely puzzled, though... - 07/05/2014 09:04:08 AM 1557 Views
Some things to consider... - 07/05/2014 11:22:46 PM 1403 Views
Re: Some things to consider... - 17/05/2015 03:32:22 AM 1335 Views
Vegeta! What does the scouter say about his power level? - 02/05/2014 04:38:59 PM 1432 Views
mmm, Vegeta *NM* - 03/05/2014 08:32:36 AM 957 Views
Sorilea and comments on the general structure of the notes - 02/05/2014 09:20:26 PM 1743 Views
Is there any reference whatsoever about strength multiples? - 02/05/2014 09:34:50 PM 1595 Views
I will let you know if I see something like that... - 02/05/2014 10:20:46 PM 1457 Views
Thanks. Because it will solve the entire riddle - 03/05/2014 11:04:31 PM 1567 Views
Re: Thanks. Because it will solve the entire riddle - 04/05/2014 06:16:52 AM 1592 Views
Interesting... - 04/05/2014 08:14:19 AM 1615 Views
Re: Interesting... - 05/05/2014 04:08:41 PM 1534 Views
LOL! - 02/05/2014 09:46:11 PM 1612 Views
More info on Sorilea - 02/05/2014 10:04:50 PM 1742 Views
This is great! - 02/05/2014 10:23:31 PM 1656 Views
In the original he might have kissed her. - 03/05/2014 12:49:53 AM 1516 Views
Having read some of his other books with sex, I've always been curious about this. - 05/05/2014 02:53:00 PM 1722 Views
Easy answer - 10/05/2014 02:49:53 PM 1470 Views
Can't argue with that! - 18/05/2014 12:31:01 AM 1592 Views
Therava/Galina - 10/05/2014 02:58:09 PM 2062 Views
Came across one of the oldest strength lists I'd seen... - 02/05/2014 10:46:29 PM 1544 Views
#10 seems weird. An Aes Sedai who never reached her full potential? - 03/05/2014 06:43:41 PM 1687 Views
Not weird. There is a good reason. - 03/05/2014 09:30:40 PM 1690 Views
One question... - 03/05/2014 09:44:35 PM 1634 Views
yes to both *NM* - 03/05/2014 10:49:29 PM 1027 Views
Suian? - 04/05/2014 04:50:32 PM 1584 Views
Does not meet the criteria I gave. *NM* - 10/05/2014 05:23:27 AM 901 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 11/05/2014 05:49:31 AM 1508 Views
Not someone who was severed, burned out, or anything like that. *NM* - 11/05/2014 01:27:28 PM 942 Views
Did she join the Aes Sedai especially early or late in life? - 11/05/2014 01:47:27 PM 1524 Views
no... - 11/05/2014 04:27:07 PM 1391 Views
Wild guess... - 11/05/2014 06:51:27 PM 1444 Views
One of Terez's criteria - 11/05/2014 09:24:57 PM 1409 Views
Hmmm... - 12/05/2014 08:51:33 AM 1389 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 13/05/2014 06:14:12 PM 1574 Views
Even I don't know what Dom is talking about. *NM* - 13/05/2014 06:24:23 PM 914 Views
Does it have anything to do with the Sharans? - 13/05/2014 10:35:45 PM 1457 Views
no - 14/05/2014 07:52:27 AM 1457 Views
Wasn't there a Sister who was a Queen or sister to a King or something like that... - 13/05/2014 09:26:02 PM 1502 Views
Kiruna... - 13/05/2014 10:34:32 PM 1421 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 13/05/2014 10:38:05 PM 1357 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 14/05/2014 04:09:42 AM 1434 Views
Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 14/05/2014 04:37:20 AM 1497 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 14/05/2014 07:55:20 AM 1472 Views
- 14/05/2014 08:14:05 AM 1401 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 15/05/2014 03:59:02 AM 1540 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 16/05/2014 04:06:02 PM 1405 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 17/05/2014 03:01:25 AM 1516 Views
Perhaps Romanda? - 05/06/2015 04:22:31 PM 1553 Views
Re: Perhaps Romanda? - 05/06/2015 08:39:31 PM 1211 Views
Re: Wild guess... - 12/05/2014 05:33:53 AM 1503 Views
Alternatively, someone who went to live in Far Madding... - 12/05/2014 12:08:07 PM 1485 Views
That was one of my guesses... - 12/05/2014 04:57:56 PM 1290 Views
Redirect to my initial "Not weird" post. *NM* - 12/05/2014 06:59:02 PM 921 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 20/05/2014 02:23:13 AM 1394 Views
Lots of no *NM* - 20/05/2014 02:30:25 AM 928 Views
You're killing me. - 20/05/2014 02:55:21 AM 1416 Views
I won't just tell you :p But... - 20/05/2014 10:31:27 AM 1514 Views
Wild speculation - 20/05/2014 01:39:52 PM 1416 Views
Could it be Verin who always used her angreal? - 20/05/2014 02:07:30 PM 1405 Views
Hmmm - 20/05/2014 03:37:57 PM 1407 Views
Well, I'm not saying she did it to appear weaker... - 20/05/2014 03:48:10 PM 1328 Views
The buffer - 20/05/2014 04:10:58 PM 1435 Views
I doubt using an angreal means you don't progress in natural strength - 20/05/2014 06:02:00 PM 1595 Views
Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 20/05/2014 11:53:11 PM 1460 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 21/05/2014 01:55:15 AM 1399 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 02:33:30 AM 1458 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 05:04:00 AM 1522 Views
So... - 22/05/2014 05:12:48 AM 1379 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 11:55:38 AM 1379 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 24/05/2014 02:07:01 AM 1425 Views
I didn't say that - 24/05/2014 11:24:30 PM 1474 Views
Re: I didn't say that - 25/05/2014 02:32:46 PM 1442 Views
did she deliberately keep her growth slow? A small theory too - 17/05/2015 11:54:28 PM 1358 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 05:49:42 PM 1565 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 06:05:28 PM 1293 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 06:23:28 PM 1568 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 08:37:20 PM 1252 Views
I think this will be in the Encyclopedia, so... - 10/06/2015 03:06:42 PM 1390 Views
you are such a tease *NM* - 10/06/2015 09:05:10 PM 750 Views
Why doesn't someone... - 24/05/2014 11:25:51 PM 1602 Views
Favourite part about this post... - 12/05/2014 07:12:51 AM 1614 Views
With regard to #10- does it involve the Oath Rod, in some way? - 15/05/2014 02:53:45 PM 1429 Views
no *NM* - 15/05/2014 07:16:16 PM 886 Views
Oh, I know! It's the Sea Folk Aes Sedai! - 17/05/2014 01:32:04 PM 1498 Views
Re: Oh, I know! It's the Sea Folk Aes Sedai! - 17/05/2014 08:45:59 PM 1536 Views
An Aes Sedai who was sent away from the Tower? - 17/05/2014 10:01:44 PM 1536 Views
Again, no reason to think this Aes Sedai did not channel often. *NM* - 18/05/2014 04:32:06 AM 925 Views
Did the Aes Sedai live in relative seclusion, did she have a Warder, and did that Warder die? *NM* - 20/05/2014 06:03:04 PM 1041 Views
Too specific - 20/05/2014 11:51:25 PM 1472 Views
Re: Too specific - 21/05/2014 05:32:32 AM 1384 Views
You think THAT isn't specific? *NM* - 22/05/2014 02:41:53 AM 937 Views
It's a fine mess that no one can work out - 09/06/2014 09:20:56 AM 1620 Views
Re: It's a fine mess that no one can work out - 04/06/2015 08:48:20 PM 1629 Views

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