Active Users:417 Time:17/06/2025 01:22:33 AM
The Oaths focus on INTENT beetnemesis Send a noteboard - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM
(I'm working this out as I type it, so bear with me. I think I'm right, though)

Basically, the Oaths aren't a kind of mystical binding- they're just a very specific form of applied Compulsion.


A stick of ivory doesn't know what a lie is. Weaves of Spirit can't tell if you're using the Power offensively or defensively.

But YOU can.

What the Oath Rod does, I'm fairly sure, is make it so you are unable to consciously violate any oath you make on it.

So "To speak no word that is not true" could LOGICALLY forbid sarcasm. It would also logically not do anything, because any word by itself is not a lie. As many have noted, it's not nearly as ironclad an oath as it sounds.


But what matters is what the Aes Sedai (or whoever swears the Oath) thinks. So, the swearer considers speaking a lie saying a "word that is not true." If there's any doubt, even subconsciously, the swearer would not be able to say the lie.

However, something like casual sarcasm, where the speaker knows she isn't intending to lie, and isn't attempting to be deceitful? No problem.




Another example: The "no Power as a weapon" rule. Except in the last defense of life of yourself, a sister, or your Warder.

What does "last defense" mean? Well, you could rationalize it to mean that an army charging at you from half a mile away makes it the "last defense." But wouldn't running away also be a defense? Shouldn't you not be able to make heads explode until you see the arrows coming at you?

Two equally valid interpretations, but the Oath Rod focuses on intent- if the Aes Sedai rationalizes "there's no way I could run away; they'd catch me and kill me" then that's that. The Oath Rod doesn't compute run speed and terrain conditions- the Aes Sedai does.


One last example- "make no weapon for a man to kill another man." What about women killing men, or men killing women? What about weapons for men to kill Shadowspawn? What about weapons without a purpose, that they'll just leave in a big pile over on that table and hope no one takes them, wink wink?


--------
The Aes Sedai have the intent of the Oaths drilled into them long before they ever lay hands on that ivory Rod- so it's very hard, I'd say almost impossible, for them to deviate from the accepted interpretations. Most people don't see using sarcasm as lying, especially when your listeners know you're being sarcastic. The First Oath means "I will not lie," so an Aes Sedai can't lie. But sarcasm? No problem.
I amuse myself.
Reply to message
Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2130 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1339 Views
Sarcasm is one thing - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1052 Views
I disagree - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 1009 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 969 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 1011 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 466 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1059 Views
Yes, she did state it. - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 981 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 971 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 913 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 968 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 833 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 818 Views
^This. *NM* - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 450 Views
Because it isn't a lie - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 979 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 962 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 808 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 897 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1004 Views
Quote for you - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 929 Views
Re: Quote for you - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 858 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 772 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 842 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 788 Views
Not at all the case - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 881 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 955 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 732 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 865 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 745 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 805 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1096 Views
Sarcasm - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 1005 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 798 Views
Here is what RJ said about it - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 959 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 412 Views
Like my momma used to say... - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 841 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 751 Views
Agreed. - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 754 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 791 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1111 Views
No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 769 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 798 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 755 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 776 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 786 Views
Where's the problem? - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 712 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 772 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 788 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 982 Views
PS You misread my original quote - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 714 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 700 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 796 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 898 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 847 Views
We are starting understand each other - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 812 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 753 Views
Completely agree - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 805 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 348 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 746 Views

Reply to Message