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It's in the way the Oath is worded darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM
The explanation that an AS can lie if she couches it in sarcasm... this is suddenly much more than a mere loophole in the Oath, it's a pretty massive gap!


So you say "an AS can lie if she couches it in sarcasm." I'm not so sure. My sense is that if the AS was certain her sarcasm would be understood as such then there's no problem, and conversely if she was certain her sarcasm would be misinterpreted then she would be unable to say it.

Can you describe a hypothetical situation in which this ability to use sarcasm could be deliberately used as an ability to straight up lie?



"I will speak no word that is not true"

It doesn't make sense that Cadsuane can speak the words "I hadn't noticed" when clearly she had. Obviously her intent was not to deceive Quillan, but the Oath doesn't say "I will speak no words meant o deceive" ... it's a very explicit statement that an AS should be unable to speak the words if they are not in her belief factual.

IMO Cadsuane should not have been able to say that statement in that way... the Oath should have forced her to word her sarcasm differently. It's much like Siuan in NS being unable to exaggerate her work load to Moiraine. The Oath kicked in there even though it was clear that Siuan's intent was not to deceive Moiraine.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Cadsuane lies! darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2130 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! joepo - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1340 Views
Sarcasm is one thing Ryan - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1053 Views
I disagree darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 1009 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic TheCrownless - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 970 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 1012 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* Deadsy - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 467 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying DomA - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1059 Views
Yes, she did state it. Deadsy - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 981 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. DomA - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 972 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? DomA - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 914 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT beetnemesis - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 968 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 834 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 818 Views
^This. *NM* Nate - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 450 Views
Because it isn't a lie DomA - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 980 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 962 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. Darth_Katie - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 808 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 897 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic DomA - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1004 Views
Quote for you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 930 Views
Re: Quote for you DomA - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 859 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 773 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 844 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 790 Views
Not at all the case darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 882 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? Onarishma - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 956 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! darius_sedai - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 733 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? Legolas - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 866 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? DomA - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 746 Views
But surely an Aes Sedai can answer a question she hasn't fully heard yet. Legolas - 07/12/2009 03:06:34 PM 981 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 808 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... Legolas - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1100 Views
Sarcasm Sidious - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 1005 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 799 Views
Here is what RJ said about it Etzel - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 959 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 412 Views
Like my momma used to say... Mat_Cauthon33 - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 842 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 752 Views
Agreed. johnnymack - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 755 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 792 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* BlackAdder - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1113 Views
No, no it doesn't. johnnymack - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 770 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. Nameless Ashaman - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 798 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? redhand - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 756 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate AgentOrange - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 778 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? redhand - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 787 Views
Usually you're s'possed to answer with a yes or no. It's easy to tell when you're evasive AgentOrange - 09/12/2009 10:46:58 PM 818 Views
Where's the problem? Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 712 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 773 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 788 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 984 Views
PS You misread my original quote darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 716 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 702 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 797 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote taura-tierno - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 899 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 848 Views
We are starting understand each other darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 813 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 753 Views
Completely agree darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 805 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* Lord Haart - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 348 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, darius_sedai - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 746 Views
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