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See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM
Pardon me if this comes off as rude, as that is not my intention. I just want to keep focused.

You allege:
...an AS can lie if she couches it in sarcasm...

I ask you to support that statement. Can you describe a hypothetical situation in which the ability to use sarcasm could be deliberately used to lie?


She flat out speaks untrue words. The Oath does not say "I will not lie" it says "I shall not speak a word that is not true"... there is a difference.

I am not alleging that an AS should be unable to use sarcasm, I'm saying sarcasm should not allow her to speak untrue words.

Obviously she would be prevented from lying in anyway if she herself didn't believe her words. I have admitted time and again above that I agree that the Intent is a necessary point, but given the wording of the Oath, intent alone is allowing Cadsuane to break her Oath to not speak untrue words. And her words were undoubtedly untrue.

It's really only a short step from this to rationalization of other statements... what this implies is that an AS can in fact lie, as long as she believes her audience won't believe her. For instance:

Romanda, knowing that Egwene is wearing a red dress in full view of everyone in the camp, can claim Egwene's dress is in fact yellow, because obviously everyone knows the real truth? I think we both know that should not be possible.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Cadsuane lies! darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2114 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! joepo - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1320 Views
Sarcasm is one thing Ryan - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1036 Views
I disagree darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 996 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic TheCrownless - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 954 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 1000 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* Deadsy - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 460 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying DomA - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1045 Views
Yes, she did state it. Deadsy - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 971 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. DomA - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 954 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? DomA - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 898 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT beetnemesis - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 953 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 821 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 805 Views
^This. *NM* Nate - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 432 Views
Because it isn't a lie DomA - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 961 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 948 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. Darth_Katie - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 791 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 879 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic DomA - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 987 Views
Quote for you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 914 Views
Re: Quote for you DomA - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 841 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 753 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 817 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 770 Views
Not at all the case darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 864 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? Onarishma - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 938 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! darius_sedai - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 716 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? Legolas - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 788 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? DomA - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 733 Views
But surely an Aes Sedai can answer a question she hasn't fully heard yet. Legolas - 07/12/2009 03:06:34 PM 907 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 790 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... Legolas - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1020 Views
Sarcasm Sidious - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 991 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 784 Views
Here is what RJ said about it Etzel - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 943 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 405 Views
Like my momma used to say... Mat_Cauthon33 - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 824 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 737 Views
Agreed. johnnymack - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 740 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 775 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* BlackAdder - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1098 Views
No, no it doesn't. johnnymack - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 753 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. Nameless Ashaman - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 780 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? redhand - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 739 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate AgentOrange - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 763 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? redhand - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 771 Views
Usually you're s'possed to answer with a yes or no. It's easy to tell when you're evasive AgentOrange - 09/12/2009 10:46:58 PM 801 Views
Where's the problem? Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 698 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 752 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 773 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 969 Views
PS You misread my original quote darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 700 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 683 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 783 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote taura-tierno - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 879 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 833 Views
We are starting understand each other darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 797 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 736 Views
Completely agree darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 790 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* Lord Haart - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 340 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, darius_sedai - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 732 Views
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