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See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM
Pardon me if this comes off as rude, as that is not my intention. I just want to keep focused.

You allege:
...an AS can lie if she couches it in sarcasm...

I ask you to support that statement. Can you describe a hypothetical situation in which the ability to use sarcasm could be deliberately used to lie?


She flat out speaks untrue words. The Oath does not say "I will not lie" it says "I shall not speak a word that is not true"... there is a difference.

I am not alleging that an AS should be unable to use sarcasm, I'm saying sarcasm should not allow her to speak untrue words.

Obviously she would be prevented from lying in anyway if she herself didn't believe her words. I have admitted time and again above that I agree that the Intent is a necessary point, but given the wording of the Oath, intent alone is allowing Cadsuane to break her Oath to not speak untrue words. And her words were undoubtedly untrue.

It's really only a short step from this to rationalization of other statements... what this implies is that an AS can in fact lie, as long as she believes her audience won't believe her. For instance:

Romanda, knowing that Egwene is wearing a red dress in full view of everyone in the camp, can claim Egwene's dress is in fact yellow, because obviously everyone knows the real truth? I think we both know that should not be possible.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Cadsuane lies! darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2223 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! joepo - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1430 Views
Sarcasm is one thing Ryan - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1143 Views
I disagree darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 1095 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic TheCrownless - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 1051 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 1102 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* Deadsy - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 509 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying DomA - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1146 Views
Yes, she did state it. Deadsy - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 1068 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. DomA - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 1053 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? DomA - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 994 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT beetnemesis - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 1078 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 919 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 896 Views
^This. *NM* Nate - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 514 Views
Because it isn't a lie DomA - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 1080 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 1061 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. Darth_Katie - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 886 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 984 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic DomA - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1088 Views
Quote for you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 1017 Views
Re: Quote for you DomA - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 935 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 854 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 927 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 875 Views
Not at all the case darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 958 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? Onarishma - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 1029 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! darius_sedai - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 815 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? Legolas - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 949 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? DomA - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 821 Views
But surely an Aes Sedai can answer a question she hasn't fully heard yet. Legolas - 07/12/2009 03:06:34 PM 1061 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 882 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... Legolas - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1179 Views
Sarcasm Sidious - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 1097 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 896 Views
Here is what RJ said about it Etzel - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 1044 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 453 Views
Like my momma used to say... Mat_Cauthon33 - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 935 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 857 Views
Agreed. johnnymack - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 862 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 889 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* BlackAdder - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1194 Views
No, no it doesn't. johnnymack - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 844 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. Nameless Ashaman - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 882 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? redhand - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 831 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate AgentOrange - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 862 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? redhand - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 862 Views
Usually you're s'possed to answer with a yes or no. It's easy to tell when you're evasive AgentOrange - 09/12/2009 10:46:58 PM 902 Views
Where's the problem? Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 809 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 859 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 872 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 1072 Views
PS You misread my original quote darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 795 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 801 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 917 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote taura-tierno - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 984 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 931 Views
We are starting understand each other darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 904 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 832 Views
Completely agree darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 885 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* Lord Haart - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 387 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, darius_sedai - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 828 Views
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