Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien...
Shannow Send a noteboard - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM
I'm basing my replies and overall agreement off of the series as a whole and the statements taken as a single body of indicators:
I would say that Nynaeve is simultaneously one of the most powerful and dextruos possible female channelers, but is so undeveloped in overall skill that she only uses a bare fraction of her potential. In TGS, Min notices that Aes Sedai are so good at humiliating people because they rarely do it out of emotional reasons but just statements of fact, so when Cadsuane says that Nynaeve has proven she can be of some use, it burns Nynaeve so much because Cadsuane was right - Nynaeve, for most of the series, had been willfully ignoring anything Power-related except for Healing...she had been keeping herself ignorant and near useless. She's recently started taking herself to her limits of her own volition, without the antagonism of a Moghedien to spur her own, and thus we get moments like that in WH, KoD and her detective work in TGS. It is fitting that she seems to come back to her traits as a Wisdom with new strengths while working on her own weaknesses.
I think that Aviendha, Egwene and Elayne together are powerful enough to match Rand at full strength. I think they form a rough 'holy trinity'/3 phases of Goddess-hood: Aviendha - the independent Huntress, Elayne - the mother, Egwene - the priestess or wisewoman.
To that degree, any two of those three women Linked could probably overwhelm Nynaeve. I think the only reason Aviendha and Egwene failed against Lanfear, for example, was because Aviendha was not at her full potential, and it wasn't clear if both had Linked before, in my interpretation of the events which were told from Rand's POV, Lanfear Shielded and held them with Air.
The main conclusion I draw, though, has more to do with a tension between what the author wanted strength in the Power to reflect and how it has appeared in the series. It seems to me that there is a certain strength level where you are strong enough to be a threat, no matter who you face, and I believe Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha are exactly at this boundary.
I would say that Nynaeve is simultaneously one of the most powerful and dextruos possible female channelers, but is so undeveloped in overall skill that she only uses a bare fraction of her potential. In TGS, Min notices that Aes Sedai are so good at humiliating people because they rarely do it out of emotional reasons but just statements of fact, so when Cadsuane says that Nynaeve has proven she can be of some use, it burns Nynaeve so much because Cadsuane was right - Nynaeve, for most of the series, had been willfully ignoring anything Power-related except for Healing...she had been keeping herself ignorant and near useless. She's recently started taking herself to her limits of her own volition, without the antagonism of a Moghedien to spur her own, and thus we get moments like that in WH, KoD and her detective work in TGS. It is fitting that she seems to come back to her traits as a Wisdom with new strengths while working on her own weaknesses.
I think that Aviendha, Egwene and Elayne together are powerful enough to match Rand at full strength. I think they form a rough 'holy trinity'/3 phases of Goddess-hood: Aviendha - the independent Huntress, Elayne - the mother, Egwene - the priestess or wisewoman.
To that degree, any two of those three women Linked could probably overwhelm Nynaeve. I think the only reason Aviendha and Egwene failed against Lanfear, for example, was because Aviendha was not at her full potential, and it wasn't clear if both had Linked before, in my interpretation of the events which were told from Rand's POV, Lanfear Shielded and held them with Air.
The main conclusion I draw, though, has more to do with a tension between what the author wanted strength in the Power to reflect and how it has appeared in the series. It seems to me that there is a certain strength level where you are strong enough to be a threat, no matter who you face, and I believe Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha are exactly at this boundary.
Moghedien is by far the weakest of the Forsaken. And yet Egwene admits that she would have no chance of standing against Moghedien.
So there's a big gap between Egwene at full strength and Moghedien. In contrast, Nynaeve is already at Moghedien's level despite the fact that she has a significant amount of development still to go through.
So if Egwene has no chance against Moghedien, she will be absolutely no threat whatsover to the likes of Semirhage or Mesaana or Graendal.
Remember the bonfire vs. candle comparison between Nynaeve's potential and that of Egwene.
The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha
- 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM
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I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here...
- 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM
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Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here...
- 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM
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Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha
- 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM
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Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more...
- 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM
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Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more...
- 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM
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Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM*
- 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM
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why?
- 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM
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Re: why?
- 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM
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I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point
- 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM
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and yet RJ does
- 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM
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Re: and yet RJ does
- 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM
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Re: and yet RJ does
- 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM
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No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it!
- 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM
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Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it!
- 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM
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Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it!
- 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM
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Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha
- 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM
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Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha
- 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM
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Let's work with your figures...
- 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM
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Re: Let's work with your figures...
- 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM
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You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM*
- 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM
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Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake.
- 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM
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Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake.
- 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM
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Re: two women holding Nynaeve
- 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM
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Re: two women holding Nynaeve
- 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM
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I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block.
- 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM
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but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential
- 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM
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What? Where? *NM*
- 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM
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I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books
- 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM
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Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength
- 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM
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Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength
- 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM
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What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to
- 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM
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It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai...
- 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM
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Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to
- 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM
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Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha
- 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM
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Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien...
- 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM
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Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien...
- 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM
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uhm.... yes she knows
- 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM
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Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien...
- 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM
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Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien...
- 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM
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Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him
- 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM
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And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai.
- 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM
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How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that?
- 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM
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Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was.
- 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM
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Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger
- 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM
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Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section!
- 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM
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Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section!
- 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM
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Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM*
- 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM
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This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use...
- 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM
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But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk?
- 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM
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I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger
*NM*
- 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM
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*NM*
- 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM
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You also forget something.
- 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM
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That has nothing to do with what I said...
- 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM
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Re: That has nothing to do with what I said...
- 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM
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Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai".
- 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM
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Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM*
- 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM
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I cannot. That's the point...
- 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM
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The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15...
- 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM
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Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM*
- 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM
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In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now?
- 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM
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Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now?
- 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM
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What do you mean, relative scale?
- 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM
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OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me
- 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM
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1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range...
- 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM
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Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative
- 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM
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The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population!
- 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM
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Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population!
- 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM
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Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population!
- 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM
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You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence...
- 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM
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Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate...
- 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM
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Explain one thing to me...
- 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM
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Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM*
- 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM
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Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote.
- 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM
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which is also suspect
- 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM
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OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then.
- 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM
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Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk?
- 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM
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Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk?
- 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM
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I've discussed this before...
- 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM
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Re: I've discussed this before...
- 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM
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Re: I've discussed this before...
- 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM
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Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself...
- 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM
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Why are you entertaining this?
- 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM
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The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM*
- 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM
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Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength.
- 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM
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Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself...
- 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM
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I can't imagine it being about skill
- 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM
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of course it's about skill
- 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM
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Not it isn't!
- 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM
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If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam
- 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM
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