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This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM
Aviendha states clearly that Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined. Amys is on Moiraine's strength level, and Melaine is equal to a very strong Aes Sedai.

So if Egwene can overpower them combined, then it means either they are below the average woman in strength, or Egwene is stronger than Lanfear.

It's one or the other. There is no other option if your Bell Curve model is applied.


"direct quotes"... there are clear conflicts with them! Aviendha tells us that Amys and Melaine are not as strong combined as Egwene, which seems straight forward enough, until a woman weaker than either of them is capable of shielding her? When Amys who is stronger than Silviana could not?

Nynaeve being able to shield Talaan, when she couldn't shield Elayne? How about Sorilea being suddenly strong enough to duplicate Cadsuane's weaves in TGS? Earlier in the series should could barely Channel enough to hold a flickering flame!

IMO there simply isn't enough information to accurately place most women on anything other than a relative "who is stronger than who" list... personally I believe RJ did this somewhat deliberately so that he had freedom to write things as he wanted ... like Nynaeve being held by 2 "average" sisters in Ebou Dar etc... he couldn't very well introduce another powerful channeler just for that reason... so he fudged a little, leaving massive gaps for our interpretations.

I'm inclined to believe that Egwene is not stronger than Amys and Melaine combined as there is too much information which conflict and Aviendha could simply have meant that Egwene would be able to defeat them combined since she is more skilled... alternatively we can say that Silviana was only able to hold the shield because Egwene was too tired to fight it... either way has it's problems.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 11012 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 2109 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1949 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1747 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1830 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1402 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 2064 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1753 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1424 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1469 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 898 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1536 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1599 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1570 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1500 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1354 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1414 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1566 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1342 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1232 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1242 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1318 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1604 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1532 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1498 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1373 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1353 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 863 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1466 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1474 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1336 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1357 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1309 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1509 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1593 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1458 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1368 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1409 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1425 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1390 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1352 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1298 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1387 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 1283 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1478 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1537 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1576 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1434 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 782 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1540 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1457 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1673 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1525 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1397 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 728 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1477 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1673 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1414 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1422 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1377 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1381 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1334 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1308 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 1264 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 1301 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1307 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1347 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 808 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 743 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1422 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1248 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 1181 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 711 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1291 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1291 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1326 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1310 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 1207 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 1258 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 1221 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1297 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1300 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1318 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1788 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1286 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 1213 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 1229 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1285 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 1209 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 1174 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 1286 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1289 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 1185 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1402 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1333 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1396 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1353 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1330 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 1225 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1280 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 692 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 1224 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1270 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 1175 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1369 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1271 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1237 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 1209 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1267 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 1225 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1293 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 1241 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 1250 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 1202 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1268 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1319 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1319 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1340 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1296 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1334 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1260 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 722 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 1296 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1273 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1302 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1302 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1328 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 1235 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1413 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1508 Views
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