Wheel of Time Messageboard: You're really splitting hairs... by fionwe1987

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You're really splitting hairs... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 01/01/2010 04:06:02 PM

Aes Sedai is a Title, and it means "Servant of All." "Sedai" is an honorific... but I am splitting hairs.

Yup.

Either way, taking a word and making it a proper noun does not change the meaning, other than making it more specific. "God" refers to a specific deity, but "god" is more general.

That is true in English.

Yes, the same word can have different meanings depending on its context, but with the context it becomes quite specific.

What does this even mean? After the word's meaning is modified by context, it becomes unmodifiable?

"Ashan'darei" means sword spear, and we know that adding an "n" at the end of words is a general pluralizing tool in the OT, Asha'man, therefor should mean "Sword something " provided we knew what the word "man" meant in the OT. We are told, however, that Asha'man means guardian. The adding of a clause or a modifier changes the meaning of an established word. The lack of a modifier should not do so.

Why shouldn't it? We've been told repeatedly that context changes everything.

Moiraine took a sip of wine. “The Old Tongue is often difficult to translate.” Egwene stared at her. The Old Tongue? What about the rings, the ter’angreal? But Moiraine went blithely on. “Tel’aran’rhiod means the World of Dreams, or perhaps the Unseen World. Neither is really exact; it is more complex than that.
Aan’allein. One Man, but also The Man Who Is an Entire People, and two or three other ways to translate it as well. And the words we have taken for common use, and never think of their meanings in the Old Tongue. Warders are called ‘Gaidin,’ which was ‘brothers to battle.’ Aes Sedai meant ‘servant of all.’ And ‘Aiel’, ‘Dedicated,’ in the Old Tongue. Stronger than that; it implies an oath written into your bones. I have often wondered what the Aiel are dedicated to.” The Wise Ones’ faces had gone to iron, but Moiraine continued.
“And Jenn Aiel.’ ‘The true dedicated,’ but again stronger. Perhaps ‘the only true dedicated.’ The only true Aiel?” She looked at them questioningly, just as if they did not suddenly have eyes of stone. None of them spoke.
If one word like Aan'allein can mean one man as well as The Man Who Is An Entire People, then I see no reason why Sedai cannot mean two things.
Look at the word Aiel. It means dedicated, but implies a lot more. Sedai may mean servant, but may imply service to the will of the Pattern/Creator, etc.

That shift in meaning comes from the fact that it becomes a title. The literal meaning does not change. Mierin Sedai means Servant Mierin, but we all know that Mierin is a Servant of All, a person who has dedicated her life to serving the higher good of all. That subtext and meaning comes from the appropriation of the word by the Aes Sedai.

Your original reply suggested that "sedai" meant a person who served the Creator, the Light, or the will of the pattern. There simply is no reason to believe that the word holds that meaning. Sure, there is a subtext that implies status, but that's it.

No. As I've shown, the very same word can mean something different in a different context. I see no reason to exclude Sedai from this rule.

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It just occured to me Etzel - 31/12/2009 10:12:12 AM 1317 Views

I tink they did ursidae - 31/12/2009 10:52:32 AM 607 Views

Yeah, you are right, checked it. For example, Mierin Sedai is mentioned! *NM* Etzel - 31/12/2009 11:02:11 AM 452 Views

Re: It just occured to me Mysteria Indictus - 31/12/2009 11:07:29 AM 606 Views

Yeah, if you compare it to the Catholic Church... Etzel - 31/12/2009 11:34:49 AM 591 Views

Re: Yeah, if you compare it to the Catholic Church... Gerbeaud - 31/12/2009 02:20:32 PM 499 Views

In a democracy though... Silence_DoGood - 31/12/2009 02:38:21 PM 458 Views

Re: Yeah, if you compare it to the Catholic Church... Kieran - 31/12/2009 04:30:58 PM 510 Views

Depends on what the actual translation is... fionwe1987 - 31/12/2009 04:49:54 PM 491 Views

The translation... Phelix - 31/12/2009 06:17:07 PM 476 Views

Look at M'Hael fionwe1987 - 31/12/2009 08:12:35 PM 500 Views

No... Phelix - 31/12/2009 08:19:18 PM 438 Views

And Sedai is not a title? fionwe1987 - 31/12/2009 08:47:03 PM 531 Views

Nope, it is an honorific. Phelix - 31/12/2009 09:31:37 PM 592 Views

You're really splitting hairs... fionwe1987 - 01/01/2010 04:06:02 PM 687 Views

That's why I said I was. Phelix - 01/01/2010 06:19:22 PM 597 Views

My 2 cents... which may only be worth 1

darius_sedai - 01/01/2010 06:39:52 PM 571 Views

I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much.

Phelix - 01/01/2010 06:49:25 PM 571 Views

Re: I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much.

darius_sedai - 01/01/2010 07:27:57 PM 587 Views

Re: I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much.

Phelix - 01/01/2010 07:37:17 PM 548 Views

Re: I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much.

darius_sedai - 01/01/2010 08:08:58 PM 585 Views

Re: I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much.

Phelix - 01/01/2010 09:05:45 PM 558 Views

I think we're pretty much in agreement darius_sedai - 01/01/2010 09:26:26 PM 575 Views

I'd agree with that.

Phelix - 01/01/2010 10:20:52 PM 526 Views

I think it's a pride of humility thing.... Phelix - 31/12/2009 06:24:17 PM 534 Views

I think it's meant to be more like "public servant" than "household help" or "farmhand" BlackAdder - 31/12/2009 07:11:28 PM 412 Views

They don't care. The meaning of the honorific is irrelevant - all significance comes from context Cannoli - 01/01/2010 06:08:40 AM 486 Views

I Agree Yondaime - 01/01/2010 08:36:40 AM 445 Views

Re: I Agree Watcher - 01/01/2010 03:04:18 PM 440 Views

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<quote id="65879">
<quote id="65744">
Aes Sedai is a Title, and it means "Servant of All." "Sedai" is an honorific... but I am splitting hairs.</quote>
Yup.
<quote>Either way, taking a word and making it a proper noun does not change the meaning, other than making it more specific. "God" refers to a specific deity, but "god" is more general.</quote> 
That is true in English.
<quote id="65734">
Yes, the same word can have different meanings depending on its context, but with the context it becomes quite specific.</quote> 
What does this even mean? After the word's meaning is modified by context, it becomes unmodifiable? 
<quote>"Ashan'darei" means sword spear, and we know that adding an "n" at the end of words is a general pluralizing tool in the OT, Asha'man, therefor should mean "Sword <i>something</i> " provided we knew what the word "man" meant in the OT. We are told, however, that Asha'man means guardian. The adding of a clause or a modifier changes the meaning of an established word. The lack of a modifier should not do so.</quote>
Why shouldn't it? We've been told repeatedly that context changes everything.

<i>Moiraine took a sip of wine. “The Old Tongue is often difficult to translate.” Egwene stared at her. The Old Tongue? What about the rings, the ter’angreal? But Moiraine went blithely on. “Tel’aran’rhiod means the World of Dreams, or perhaps the Unseen World. Neither is really exact; it is more complex than that. 
Aan’allein. One Man, but also The Man Who Is an Entire People, and two or three other ways to translate it as well. And the words we have taken for common use, and never think of their meanings in the Old Tongue. Warders are called ‘Gaidin,’ which was ‘brothers to battle.’ Aes Sedai meant ‘servant of all.’ And ‘Aiel’, ‘Dedicated,’ in the Old Tongue. Stronger than that; it implies an oath written into your bones. I have often wondered what the Aiel are dedicated to.” The Wise Ones’ faces had gone to iron, but Moiraine continued. 
“And Jenn Aiel.’ ‘The true dedicated,’ but again stronger. Perhaps ‘the only true dedicated.’ The only true Aiel?” She looked at them questioningly, just as if they did not suddenly have eyes of stone. None of them spoke. </i>
If one word like Aan'allein can mean one man as well as The Man Who Is An Entire People, then I see no reason why Sedai cannot mean two things. 
Look at the word Aiel. It means dedicated, but implies a lot more. Sedai may mean servant, but may imply service to the will of the Pattern/Creator, etc.

<quote id="65734">
That shift in meaning comes from the fact that it becomes a title. The literal meaning does not change. Mierin Sedai means Servant Mierin, but we all know that Mierin is a Servant of All, a person who has dedicated her life to serving the higher good of all. That subtext and meaning comes from the appropriation of the word by the Aes Sedai.

Your original reply suggested that "sedai" meant a person who served the Creator, the Light, or the will of the pattern. There simply is no reason to believe that the word holds that meaning. Sure, there is a subtext that implies status, but that's it.</quote>
No. As I've shown, the very same word can mean something different in a different context. I see no reason to exclude Sedai from this rule.
</quote>

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