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Re: I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much. Phelix Send a noteboard - 01/01/2010 07:37:17 PM

But they don't give it the highly specific meaning that Fionwe proposed. Where do we hear an Aes Sedai go on about how their noble order exists to serve the pattern? Why don't any of the Forsaken mention that highly specific meaning when they mock the modern Aes Sedai?

I think they do! How many times have we heard "so called Aiel" or "what passes for AS in this era"? They don't spell it out, but they certainly imply that a modern AS is only a shadow of what they were in the AoL. And personally I think that goes well beyond just being poorly trained in the OP!


I agree that it's not just their lack of knowledge about channeling; it's their lack of numbers, the fact that they "bind themselves like criminals," the fact that the vast majority of them are so extremely weak, and the fact that they have lost so much of the knowledge from the AoL... all of that combined.

If there was a connotation of serving the Light or the Pattern, then they would explicitly say that, perhaps while discussing the Black Ajah. If "Aes Sedai" had the connotation of serving the light, then that would make modern BA members Forsaken, because they have rejected the Light too.

There is also meaning with them being labeled "Forsaken" (only former AS got that title). I think it's safe to infer that they have forsaken the light, or perhaps vows we don't know about from the AoL.


They did definitely forsake the Light, as well as their vows to serve.

I disagree. She is reading the Old Tongue as a modern translator, not as a fluent speaker. I doubt Mierin ever wonders what is meant by tel'aran'rhiod.

Well that is true, but the Aiel she's talking to certainly think she's correct in her assumptions and they've all been through the columns in Rhudien so they would know.


I need to re-read that scene before I make any further comments.

One could view them as Servants of the Light, or the Pattern, or the Creator, but that would be unsupported by the text. We are told that Aes Sedai are "Servants of All" implying honor through public service. No one says a thing about there being any implication of serving the pattern.

As you mention, the title came from the AoL AS, and they were a different kettle of fish than the current lot. I doubt the half-trained girls who founded the tower would change the meaning of what their mentors did.

Everyone in the AoL could achieve honor through public service. That was the basis for their entire society. Seems redundant to have "Servants of All" in a society where everyone is in fact honored for serving.


But remember we are told that it was a particular honor to become Aes Sedai, and that people who became Aes Sedai often earned third names for doing great service to society. Yes, the whole society revolved around serving others, but servants of all served society at large, not just those in close proximity to them.

IMO the only logical answer is that the literal translation of Aes Sedai is not the actual meaning of the Title assumed during the AoL and carried on into modern WT AS. I'd say the connotation is probably that the Title AS probably carries a sense of obligation to Serve or that there is a specific type of service ... seems to fit with Rand's description of what Asha'man means:


An obligation to serve would make sense, but that is not what Fionwe proposed. He suggested that Aes Sedai carries the connotation of Servant of the Pattern, to the Creator, of the Light, etc. and there simply is no evidence for that kind of meaning. What you propose, that "Servant of All" implies an obligation to serve, or a duty to fulfill, that would be a logical extrapolation of "servant."

Lord of Chaos

The Black Tower

"Another word in the Old Tongue is asha’man. It means guardian, or guardians. Or defender, and maybe a couple of other things; I told you, the Old Tongue is very flexible. Guardian seems to be best, though. Not just any defender or guardian, though. You could not call a man who defended an unjust cause asha’man, and never one that was evil. An asha’man was a man who defended truth and justice and right for everyone. A guardian who would not yield even when hope was gone."

I see no reason to believe that Aes Sedai doesn't have a specific connotation attached to it.


It could have a connotation, but I disagree with the ones Fionwe proposed.
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.

You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill

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It just occured to me Etzel - 31/12/2009 10:12:12 AM 1317 Views
I tink they did ursidae - 31/12/2009 10:52:32 AM 607 Views
Yeah, you are right, checked it. For example, Mierin Sedai is mentioned! *NM* Etzel - 31/12/2009 11:02:11 AM 452 Views
Re: It just occured to me Mysteria Indictus - 31/12/2009 11:07:29 AM 606 Views
Yeah, if you compare it to the Catholic Church... Etzel - 31/12/2009 11:34:49 AM 591 Views
Re: Yeah, if you compare it to the Catholic Church... Gerbeaud - 31/12/2009 02:20:32 PM 499 Views
In a democracy though... Silence_DoGood - 31/12/2009 02:38:21 PM 458 Views
Re: Yeah, if you compare it to the Catholic Church... Kieran - 31/12/2009 04:30:58 PM 510 Views
Depends on what the actual translation is... fionwe1987 - 31/12/2009 04:49:54 PM 491 Views
The translation... Phelix - 31/12/2009 06:17:07 PM 476 Views
Look at M'Hael fionwe1987 - 31/12/2009 08:12:35 PM 500 Views
No... Phelix - 31/12/2009 08:19:18 PM 438 Views
And Sedai is not a title? fionwe1987 - 31/12/2009 08:47:03 PM 531 Views
Nope, it is an honorific. Phelix - 31/12/2009 09:31:37 PM 592 Views
You're really splitting hairs... fionwe1987 - 01/01/2010 04:06:02 PM 686 Views
That's why I said I was. Phelix - 01/01/2010 06:19:22 PM 597 Views
My 2 cents... which may only be worth 1 darius_sedai - 01/01/2010 06:39:52 PM 571 Views
I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much. Phelix - 01/01/2010 06:49:25 PM 571 Views
Re: I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much. darius_sedai - 01/01/2010 07:27:57 PM 587 Views
Re: I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much. Phelix - 01/01/2010 07:37:17 PM 548 Views
Re: I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much. darius_sedai - 01/01/2010 08:08:58 PM 585 Views
Re: I'll cash that check, but I doubt my bank will care much. Phelix - 01/01/2010 09:05:45 PM 558 Views
I think we're pretty much in agreement darius_sedai - 01/01/2010 09:26:26 PM 575 Views
I'd agree with that. Phelix - 01/01/2010 10:20:52 PM 526 Views
I think it's a pride of humility thing.... Phelix - 31/12/2009 06:24:17 PM 534 Views
I think it's meant to be more like "public servant" than "household help" or "farmhand" BlackAdder - 31/12/2009 07:11:28 PM 412 Views
They don't care. The meaning of the honorific is irrelevant - all significance comes from context Cannoli - 01/01/2010 06:08:40 AM 486 Views
I Agree Yondaime - 01/01/2010 08:36:40 AM 445 Views
Re: I Agree Watcher - 01/01/2010 03:04:18 PM 440 Views
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