See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret...
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM
That it doesn't kill the "Graendal was there"-theory, all the quotes rather indicate that truly just SH and Elza were involved - as it seems to be the case in the book - because only these two characters are mentioned regarding the scene. It seems especially unlikely that the Compulsion expert Graendal was apparently needed to find out that Elza was under Compulsion and to teach her the necessary weaves, but that Graendal wouldn't remove the Compulsion then or simply take the DM herself (after probably checking what weaves would actually be needed for Elza to open the box ). It's even said that Elza was "essential" for SH for getting things done (since SH is limited in affecting the physical world), though one wonders why SH couldn't use Graendal, if she was anyway already involved.
If Graendal saw Elza in TAR, taught her some weaves to undo the wards and noticed she was compelled, there wasn't much she could do there. The compulsion would be real world, and as such not removable in TAR.
And as for why Brandon doesn't hint at the presence of someone else... that is obvious. He doesn't want to spoil the surprise.
My reason for suspecting Granedal is that this whole scene was very psychological. Several things were necessary:
1) Semirhage would try to torture Rand. I think Granedal's comments on Semirhage's cold, one track mind in the prologue suggests that she would have foreseen this.
2) Rand would not respond to the torture, so Semi would have to turn to Min. This in turn would remind Rand forcefully of Ilyna, and this would drive him to seek the TP.
The 2nd point is what cinches it for me. Graendal has studied people with voices in their head. It is possible that she knew what Rand's being in contact with LTT meant, and thus engineered this to give him pain of heart as commanded.
The plan seems to cerebral and psychological to be Moridin's. Too indirect, playing too much on the emotions of the characters involved. That's the signature of Graendal.
Further, the only thing her prologue showed us was that she knew Semi was captured (and that Moridin was so pissed he was ready to sacrifice her) and that she was ordered to mentally torture Rand.
Both these facts were critical in a crime that depended on the psychology of the victim. Not seeing some involvement from Graendal in this seems absurd to me.
Elza's Compulsion
- 14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM
2162 Views
I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story
- 14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM
1086 Views
I disagree
- 14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM
956 Views
except work with Semirhage!
- 14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM
887 Views
Well...
- 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
1035 Views
SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM*
- 14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM
371 Views
Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM*
- 15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM
320 Views
that's your interpretation of the quote
- 15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM
770 Views
This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM*
- 16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM
299 Views
As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes
- 16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM
702 Views
The question is...
- 16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM
715 Views
Re: The question is...
- 16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM
708 Views
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM*
- 16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM
803 Views
I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that
- 16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM
720 Views
BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though
- 16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM
766 Views
always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently?
- 16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM
750 Views
I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ...
- 14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM
1026 Views
That doesn't prove anything...
- 14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM
961 Views
Re: That doesn't prove anything...
- 15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM
677 Views
not really
- 15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM
707 Views
I don't understand your theory
- 16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM
679 Views
It's very simple
- 16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM
676 Views
So in other words
- 17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM
797 Views
no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct
- 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM
701 Views
- 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM
701 Views
Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct
- 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM
728 Views
- 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM
728 Views
I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head
- 18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM
705 Views
Here's Brandon's one answer
- 18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM
755 Views
But...
- 18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM
715 Views
But by this logic...
- 18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM
678 Views
Yes...
- 18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM
720 Views
While you are right...
- 18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM
708 Views
as we've discussed in another thread
- 18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM
1112 Views
I mean...
- 19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM
727 Views
Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL?
- 19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM
747 Views
"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote.
- 19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM
677 Views
Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM*
- 19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM
319 Views
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret...
- 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM
786 Views
Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later
- 14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM
785 Views
Anything is possible ...
- 14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM
798 Views
who knows
- 14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM
759 Views
It's not all that convoluted, though ...
- 15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM
666 Views
Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end
- 15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM
858 Views
Good point!
- 15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM
783 Views
what doesn't make sense about this to me
- 15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM
744 Views
Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me
- 15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM
753 Views
this makes my head hurt ... or maybe all that red wine I drank last night is doing that
- 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM
728 Views
- 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM
728 Views
As it is often the case...
- 16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM
771 Views
go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please.
- 16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM
728 Views
Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story
- 14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM
775 Views
Uhhh?
- 14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM
971 Views
One point
- 14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM
850 Views
Elza truly believes that...
- 14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM
790 Views
Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion"
- 14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM
840 Views
So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed.
- 15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM
789 Views
Not quite
- 14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM
807 Views
But that could mean that they were to start the LB between Rand and the Great Lord immediately *NM*
- 16/01/2010 01:04:32 PM
319 Views
