That it doesn't kill the "Graendal was there"-theory, all the quotes rather indicate that truly just SH and Elza were involved - as it seems to be the case in the book - because only these two characters are mentioned regarding the scene. It seems especially unlikely that the Compulsion expert Graendal was apparently needed to find out that Elza was under Compulsion and to teach her the necessary weaves, but that Graendal wouldn't remove the Compulsion then or simply take the DM herself (after probably checking what weaves would actually be needed for Elza to open the box ). It's even said that Elza was "essential" for SH for getting things done (since SH is limited in affecting the physical world), though one wonders why SH couldn't use Graendal, if she was anyway already involved.
Ah, well, we will see.
Ah, well, we will see.
I don't agree with Fionwe, I think that Brandon answered the question in totality.
This debate has originated from the fact that no one believes that SH can detect a weave of saidar on Elza. I don't agree with this. We've seen years ago that Myrddraal can detect even the smallest thread of Earth channeled by Egwene, and SH is a super-fade with vast powers but also vast limitations. Verin also used an angreal to weave the Compulsion so she buried a great deal of saidar in Elza. Not only that, but I believe SH to be a direct part of the Dark One in a Fade's body, and he could have deduced from Elza's behaviour that she was Compelled. He may have ordered her to kill Rand, and seen her struggle to obey despite terrifying her.
Either way, there are far too many flaws in this Graendal theory. He would never have needed one of the lowly Black Ajah to help him if he had Graendal with him. Going to all the trouble of teaching Elza rare weaves would be useless in the presence of a female Forsaken. It's also flawed to think that Graendal is the most logical choice here just because Compulsion is present in the scene. Obviously Cyndane and Moghedien are the most logical choices, being the tame servants of the Nae'blis. Either would do exactly what Moridin or SH wanted, whereas Graendal would not necessarily - she proved that in the Prologue. It's her instinct to toy with Moridin. Furthermore, why would this female Forsaken tell SH who would tell Elza? She'd obviously instruct her directly.
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Elza's Compulsion
- 14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM
2033 Views
I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story
- 14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM
968 Views
I disagree
- 14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM
850 Views
except work with Semirhage!
- 14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM
773 Views
Well...
- 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
884 Views
SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM*
- 14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM
305 Views
Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM*
- 15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM
274 Views
that's your interpretation of the quote
- 15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM
656 Views
This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM*
- 16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM
250 Views
As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes
- 16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM
595 Views
The question is...
- 16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM
614 Views
Re: The question is...
- 16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM
602 Views
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM*
- 16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM
666 Views
I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that
- 16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM
599 Views
BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though
- 16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM
651 Views
always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently?
- 16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM
602 Views
I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ...
- 14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM
922 Views
That doesn't prove anything...
- 14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM
852 Views
Re: That doesn't prove anything...
- 15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM
569 Views
not really
- 15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM
596 Views
I don't understand your theory
- 16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM
576 Views
It's very simple
- 16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM
568 Views
So in other words
- 17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM
695 Views
no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct
- 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM
593 Views
- 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM
593 Views
Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct
- 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM
620 Views
- 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM
620 Views
I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head
- 18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM
608 Views
Here's Brandon's one answer
- 18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM
626 Views
But...
- 18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM
598 Views
But by this logic...
- 18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM
570 Views
Yes...
- 18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM
626 Views
While you are right...
- 18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM
612 Views
as we've discussed in another thread
- 18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM
1009 Views
I mean...
- 19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM
612 Views
Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL?
- 19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM
650 Views
"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote.
- 19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM
568 Views
Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM*
- 19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM
272 Views
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret...
- 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM
677 Views
I agree with you
- 19/01/2010 04:45:59 PM
614 Views
Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later
- 14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM
675 Views
Anything is possible ...
- 14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM
688 Views
who knows
- 14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM
652 Views
It's not all that convoluted, though ...
- 15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM
561 Views
Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end
- 15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM
744 Views
Good point!
- 15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM
671 Views
what doesn't make sense about this to me
- 15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM
639 Views
Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me
- 15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM
640 Views
this makes my head hurt ... or maybe all that red wine I drank last night is doing that
- 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM
615 Views
- 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM
615 Views
As it is often the case...
- 16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM
667 Views
go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please.
- 16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM
630 Views
Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story
- 14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM
671 Views
Uhhh?
- 14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM
832 Views
One point
- 14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM
755 Views
Elza truly believes that...
- 14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM
678 Views
Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion"
- 14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM
730 Views
So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed.
- 15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM
654 Views
Not quite
- 14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM
694 Views
But that could mean that they were to start the LB between Rand and the Great Lord immediately *NM*
- 16/01/2010 01:04:32 PM
270 Views
