That it doesn't kill the "Graendal was there"-theory, all the quotes rather indicate that truly just SH and Elza were involved - as it seems to be the case in the book - because only these two characters are mentioned regarding the scene. It seems especially unlikely that the Compulsion expert Graendal was apparently needed to find out that Elza was under Compulsion and to teach her the necessary weaves, but that Graendal wouldn't remove the Compulsion then or simply take the DM herself (after probably checking what weaves would actually be needed for Elza to open the box ). It's even said that Elza was "essential" for SH for getting things done (since SH is limited in affecting the physical world), though one wonders why SH couldn't use Graendal, if she was anyway already involved.
Ah, well, we will see.
Ah, well, we will see.
I don't agree with Fionwe, I think that Brandon answered the question in totality.
This debate has originated from the fact that no one believes that SH can detect a weave of saidar on Elza. I don't agree with this. We've seen years ago that Myrddraal can detect even the smallest thread of Earth channeled by Egwene, and SH is a super-fade with vast powers but also vast limitations. Verin also used an angreal to weave the Compulsion so she buried a great deal of saidar in Elza. Not only that, but I believe SH to be a direct part of the Dark One in a Fade's body, and he could have deduced from Elza's behaviour that she was Compelled. He may have ordered her to kill Rand, and seen her struggle to obey despite terrifying her.
Either way, there are far too many flaws in this Graendal theory. He would never have needed one of the lowly Black Ajah to help him if he had Graendal with him. Going to all the trouble of teaching Elza rare weaves would be useless in the presence of a female Forsaken. It's also flawed to think that Graendal is the most logical choice here just because Compulsion is present in the scene. Obviously Cyndane and Moghedien are the most logical choices, being the tame servants of the Nae'blis. Either would do exactly what Moridin or SH wanted, whereas Graendal would not necessarily - she proved that in the Prologue. It's her instinct to toy with Moridin. Furthermore, why would this female Forsaken tell SH who would tell Elza? She'd obviously instruct her directly.
I agree that it's very possible that SH has powers we haven't seen on-screen at this point. I also agree that Cyndane or Moghedien could as easily have been the teacher rather than Graendal (I've stated above why she is my primary suspect).
I do not agree that we got a full answer to the question from Brandon though.
I will point out that Fades and SH have never been show to recognize specific threads, much less identify weaves. Being aware that the OP was in use is a far cry from recognizing a very cleverly hidden Compulsion, as Verin points out:
TPoD
Prologue
Soon, only the most careful Delving would tell that anything had been done, and not even that would identify the weave. Verin had tested that carefully, and if she did say so herself, none surpassed her at Delving.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Elza's Compulsion
14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM
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I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story
14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM
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I disagree
14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM
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except work with Semirhage!
14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM
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Well...
14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
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SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM*
14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM
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Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM*
15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM
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that's your interpretation of the quote
15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM
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This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM*
16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM
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As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes
16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM
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The question is...
16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM
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Re: The question is...
16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM
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Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM*
16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM
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I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that
16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM
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BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though
16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM
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always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently?
16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM
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I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ...
14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM
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That doesn't prove anything...
14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM
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Re: That doesn't prove anything...
15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM
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not really
15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM
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I don't understand your theory
16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM
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It's very simple
16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM
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So in other words
17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM
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no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct
17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM
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Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct
18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM
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I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head
18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM
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Here's Brandon's one answer
18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM
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But...
18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM
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But by this logic...
18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM
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Yes...
18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM
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While you are right...
18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM
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as we've discussed in another thread
18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM
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I mean...
19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM
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Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL?
19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM
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"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote.
19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM
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Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM*
19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM
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See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret...
18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM
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I agree with you
19/01/2010 04:45:59 PM
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and you may very well be correct
19/01/2010 05:39:02 PM
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Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later
14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM
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Anything is possible ...
14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM
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who knows
14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM
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It's not all that convoluted, though ...
15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM
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Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end
15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM
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Good point!
15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM
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what doesn't make sense about this to me
15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM
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Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me
15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM
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this makes my head hurt ... or maybe all that red wine I drank last night is doing that
15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM
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As it is often the case...
16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM
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go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please.
16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM
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Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story
14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM
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Uhhh?
14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM
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One point
14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM
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Elza truly believes that...
14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM
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Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion"
14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM
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So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed.
15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM
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Not quite
14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM
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But that could mean that they were to start the LB between Rand and the Great Lord immediately *NM*
16/01/2010 01:04:32 PM
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