Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either.
Legolas Send a noteboard - 09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM
I agree with you about Varda and Yavanna, but I still don't feel as though they have very strong features in the books. Yes, they're feared, but it is the men doing most of everything. I love Melian, however, she willingly sacrificed so much to be with a petty elf. Though she hasd lived for thousands of years before Thingol's birth, she subordinates herself to him almosty immediately (I mean petty because of Thingol's actions with the Noldor in some of the wars, and how possessive/harsh he becomes; but I generally like Elu). I just cannot stand how there are no powerful women that do not have a male companion guarding over them, as if they are unable to function without one. Even the women that do phenomenal things: Luthien, Eowen, either end up deplorably unhappy, or married with kids to put them in their "rightful" places.
There are no powerful women who remain single (excepting that one female Edain leader somewhere in the Silm), but several of them far outstrip their husbands/lovers: Luthien (though that's sort of a partnership of equals as far as the dynamic goes), Galadriel (who's the one on the White Council? no, it's not Celeborn ), Melian (and let's not forget Lobelia Sackville-Baggins ). Eowyn, Elwing and Arwen get married and do sort of settle down with children, but those too seem more like partnerships of equals. And then there's various women who clearly aren't equal but still find ways to wield their influence, like pretty much all the women in Turin's story.
So really, Tolkien's world IS like real world history - dominated by men, but with more influential and powerful women than you'd think at first sight.
The greatest King in Fantasy
09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM
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King Arthur. Hands down.
09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM
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I would argue with you.
09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM
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That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable.
09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM
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I have to agree with Dannymac
09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM
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But he's not in a modern fantasy novel.
09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM
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when I read the actual book...
10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM
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"The actual character"? Which of the countless different ones? *NM*
10/04/2010 12:21:00 AM
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i mean the actual character of Arthur in the actual book.
10/04/2010 12:51:44 AM
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There isn't an "actual book." Le Morte d'Arthur is a relatively early compilation of legends. *NM*
10/04/2010 03:09:40 AM
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I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur
09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM
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My money is still on Aragorn
09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM
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Aragorn is so awesome...
09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM
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Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though.
09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM
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Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though.
09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM
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Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien.
09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM
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Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien.
09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM
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I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM
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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM
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If Tacitus and Graves were accurate
09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM
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Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate
09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM
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I rather liked her depiction in Rome.
09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM
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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM
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Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either.
09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM
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Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but...
09/04/2010 06:55:23 PM
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Re: Nienna, the Valier of Mercy, was single and a wanderer. She's not the most powerful, but...
09/04/2010 07:04:37 PM
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thought of a better example: Arien the Maia of the Sun was single and far more powerful than Tilion
09/04/2010 09:17:34 PM
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Re: I can't agree about the goddesses.
09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM
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That was my first assumption too, but evidently not. *NM*
09/04/2010 05:22:39 PM
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I changed it to Livia Augusta Sheesh, you people-- a guy mistypes one time!! *NM*
09/04/2010 05:29:03 PM
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I call bullshit
09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM
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Re: I call bullshit
09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM
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Re: I call bullshit
10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM
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I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist.
10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM
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He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things.
09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM
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Doesn't have to face many things?
09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM
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As in, there are many important aspects of being king he doesn't have to face.
09/04/2010 08:07:16 PM
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well technically speaking he WAS the king when he did all those things.
10/04/2010 12:15:26 AM
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Re: Doesn't have to face many things?
09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM
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Re: Doesn't have to face many things?
10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM
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I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM
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I'm going to go with a tie...
09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM
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Rohan was a whiny hypocritical bitch who failed at the only real test of rulership he ever faced.
10/04/2010 02:51:34 AM
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Artur Hawkwing
10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM
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Alexander the Great? *NM*
10/04/2010 05:08:25 AM
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AH conquered more, did better, & was not a huge d-bag. Alex would have commissioned that big statue *NM*
12/04/2010 03:00:39 PM
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And both managed to have their so-called "empires" crumble within a year of their death. *NM*
12/04/2010 06:12:20 PM
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Which just reinforces how awesome AH was - no one else could do what he did
13/04/2010 11:50:54 AM
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???
10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM
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Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people
12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM
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What's the name of the Lemur-thing that's the King in "the penguins of madagascar"? He gets my vote! *NM*
14/04/2010 04:46:42 AM
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