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Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already ßelals Girl Send a noteboard - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM
For some reason, people can't decline two pronouns at the same time if one is "I" (or decline "I" when used together with a noun). The typical grammatical error of the past generation, along the lines of "Me and you went to the store", was corrected by teachers quite frequently: "No, say 'You and I went to the store.'"

However, the teachers were just too lazy, stupid or indifferent to continue the explanation of just WHY the previous example should be "Sally and I" instead of "Me and Sally". The conclusion many have come to (apparently), is that the proper form is "I" whenever there are two pronouns or "I" is used with a noun. This has led to some completely incorrect sentences, such as:


I think a lot of people know the rule, but like you said, it has become ingrained in many people to always use "I" in that situation to the point that using "me" sounds "wrong," regardless of whether it is actually gramatically correct or not. Therefore, people still mess it up when they aren't being careful.

For example, I know the rule of when to use "I" and when to use "me," and when I have time to think about it, such as when I am writing, I will usually use the terms correctly. But when I don't have time to think about it, like when I am speaking, a lot of times I will unconciously revert to "instinct," and the "rule" of always using "I," because I "learned" that first before I learned the true rule.


This error irritates me more than saying "hold down the fort".


What is it supposed to be?
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already Tom - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1068 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing snoopcester - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 278 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. Tom - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 252 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here snoopcester - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 238 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 269 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 296 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* Tom - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 142 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 243 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens LadyLorraine - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 371 Views
THEY ARE VICIOUS CREATURES FROM THE DEEP. CUTTLEFISH HAVE W SHAPED PUPILS. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:00:41 AM 237 Views
Actually nothing like that Sareitha Sedai - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 226 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 251 Views
As a Classicist I'm afraid I can't get past the misguided origins. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 10:08:34 PM 239 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 279 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 244 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 258 Views
*NM* Avendesora - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 122 Views
you know, considering my state was THE lowest in the country for education... LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 05:04:42 PM 285 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* Monkey - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 226 Views
*cough* move along... ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 271 Views
That annoys me, too Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 407 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 243 Views
No Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 227 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 460 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 467 Views
Er, no... Tim - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 224 Views
Re: Er, no... Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 245 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 226 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 234 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 265 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 447 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? Tim - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 242 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 249 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 209 Views
Sorted Camilla - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 450 Views
Coffee time is going to be appropriated by grammar discussion? Shall I bring a book? *NM* Rebekah - 21/05/2010 10:12:48 AM 227 Views
Not entirely. We just need to get a hold of Pratchett's Unseen Academicals on the way. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:25:57 AM 215 Views
This whole thread is just an elaborate effort to provoke my complaints about terminal prepositions. Joel - 21/05/2010 02:58:05 PM 370 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 285 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 346 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 279 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. jh - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 484 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. Beqi - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 274 Views
It's the same as "I" vs. "me". "Who" can only be a subject. "Whom" is correct everywhere else. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:47:21 PM 467 Views
That's where I get into trouble. Joel - 21/05/2010 03:01:18 PM 431 Views
Along these lines Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 436 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. LiterateDog - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 260 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 267 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 229 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 265 Views
Not limited to the US of A. Rebekah - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 436 Views
It's properly the "US and A" - if Borat taught me nothing else, it's that. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:46:18 PM 240 Views
If you're going to start down that path... Legolas - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 258 Views
Personally Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 212 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 250 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... Legolas - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 447 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 482 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 346 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 421 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 221 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 104 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. Tim - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 225 Views
<chant> Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 225 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 215 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 406 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 109 Views
Example please? *NM* Tim - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 240 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 228 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. Tim - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 434 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 22/05/2010 11:40:05 PM 328 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 23/05/2010 10:30:59 AM 244 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM 335 Views
Why = what for? That's amazing! *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:22:35 PM 119 Views
Cf pretty much every other European language, no? Legolas - 23/05/2010 09:32:33 PM 224 Views
Yes, but when you're a native speaker of English it comes as something of a surprise. Tim - 23/05/2010 11:18:45 PM 212 Views
The thing is that you really have to know Old English to figure it out. Ghavrel - 24/05/2010 03:22:10 AM 229 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object Larry - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 224 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 209 Views
I know it's odd, but in terse responses, it seems to be a direct object rather than nominative Larry - 21/05/2010 01:46:10 AM 219 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 234 Views
Well... Larry - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 410 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 414 Views
I know that Larry - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 340 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 332 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 235 Views
I know it's dative in Latin Larry - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 421 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 207 Views
And you would be wrong in that. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 226 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 203 Views
You still just aren't getting this. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 214 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 107 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. Tom - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9368 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 101 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 407 Views
True. But English uses the reflexive in that scenario, not the personal pronoun. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:05:30 PM 243 Views
That was atrocious Latin. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 440 Views
I was very drunk, and it wasn't that bad even had I been sober. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:04:12 PM 338 Views
Parare means, first and foremost, to prepare, supply or make something available. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:50:22 AM 340 Views
It also means to buy, and it frequently has that meaning when it's with the dative. No dice. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:31:01 AM 415 Views
Now you're pulling things out of your ass (about parare, at least) Tom - 23/05/2010 02:32:58 AM 218 Views
I unfortunately don't have the OLD, and no, I'm not. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:41:22 AM 253 Views
So I looked up the word in Lewis & Short. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:49:19 AM 216 Views
Interestingly enough, the Oxford Latin Dictionary doesn't have one use of the dative for "to buy". Tom - 23/05/2010 02:51:54 PM 427 Views
Hm. I guess I have to concede defeat in this, then. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:21:29 PM 230 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 234 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 105 Views
C'est moi. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 421 Views
One additional thought. everynametaken - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 360 Views
Let me clarify. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 217 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. everynametaken - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 206 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... damookster - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 264 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 101 Views
You clearly had an unusually good teacher. That's exactly what should be taught. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:00:58 PM 233 Views
That is what I was taught... Dominic - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 509 Views
Same. TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 209 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* Gena - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 265 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! Monkey - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 247 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 213 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar Larry - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 352 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. Tom - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 353 Views
True Larry - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 217 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. Tom - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 424 Views
I guess I did Larry - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 480 Views
Those all sound boring. Tom - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 386 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point Larry - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 409 Views
Avendesora - 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 352 Views
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