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That's where I get into trouble. Joel Send a noteboard - 21/05/2010 03:01:18 PM
Of course, be careful when it's used as the beginning of a relative clause, because it's functioning as the subject of that clause but that clause, relative to the rest of the sentence, isn't the subject.

Example:

I don't like people who misuse the subjunctive.

In this case "who" is modifying the object of the sentence, but it is the subject of the clause.

My brain seems to seize up when confronted with an objective clause that has its own subject. You've clarified the matter nicely though, thanks.
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already Tom - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1155 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing snoopcester - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 348 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. Tom - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 326 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here snoopcester - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 316 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 336 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 367 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* Tom - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 176 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 276 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens LadyLorraine - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 445 Views
THEY ARE VICIOUS CREATURES FROM THE DEEP. CUTTLEFISH HAVE W SHAPED PUPILS. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:00:41 AM 291 Views
Actually nothing like that Sareitha Sedai - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 295 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 283 Views
As a Classicist I'm afraid I can't get past the misguided origins. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 10:08:34 PM 268 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 350 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 274 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 330 Views
*NM* Avendesora - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 156 Views
you know, considering my state was THE lowest in the country for education... LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 05:04:42 PM 345 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* Monkey - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 258 Views
*cough* move along... ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 333 Views
That annoys me, too Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 478 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 275 Views
No Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 298 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 535 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 549 Views
Er, no... Tim - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 287 Views
Re: Er, no... Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 304 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 257 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 263 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 340 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 523 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? Tim - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 306 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 320 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 274 Views
Sorted Camilla - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 516 Views
Coffee time is going to be appropriated by grammar discussion? Shall I bring a book? *NM* Rebekah - 21/05/2010 10:12:48 AM 263 Views
Not entirely. We just need to get a hold of Pratchett's Unseen Academicals on the way. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:25:57 AM 289 Views
This whole thread is just an elaborate effort to provoke my complaints about terminal prepositions. Joel - 21/05/2010 02:58:05 PM 436 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 352 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 411 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 335 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. jh - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 554 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. Beqi - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 350 Views
It's the same as "I" vs. "me". "Who" can only be a subject. "Whom" is correct everywhere else. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:47:21 PM 536 Views
That's where I get into trouble. Joel - 21/05/2010 03:01:18 PM 504 Views
Along these lines Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 509 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. LiterateDog - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 326 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 332 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 261 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 298 Views
Not limited to the US of A. Rebekah - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 507 Views
It's properly the "US and A" - if Borat taught me nothing else, it's that. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:46:18 PM 307 Views
If you're going to start down that path... Legolas - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 327 Views
Personally Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 271 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 285 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... Legolas - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 520 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 592 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 432 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 501 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 288 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 139 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. Tim - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 299 Views
<chant> Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 290 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 287 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 472 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 140 Views
Example please? *NM* Tim - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 273 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 301 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. Tim - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 512 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 22/05/2010 11:40:05 PM 408 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 23/05/2010 10:30:59 AM 322 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM 416 Views
Why = what for? That's amazing! *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:22:35 PM 142 Views
Cf pretty much every other European language, no? Legolas - 23/05/2010 09:32:33 PM 294 Views
Yes, but when you're a native speaker of English it comes as something of a surprise. Tim - 23/05/2010 11:18:45 PM 287 Views
The thing is that you really have to know Old English to figure it out. Ghavrel - 24/05/2010 03:22:10 AM 292 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object Larry - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 300 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 282 Views
I know it's odd, but in terse responses, it seems to be a direct object rather than nominative Larry - 21/05/2010 01:46:10 AM 287 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 302 Views
Well... Larry - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 484 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 489 Views
I know that Larry - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 409 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 406 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 297 Views
I know it's dative in Latin Larry - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 487 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 275 Views
And you would be wrong in that. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 296 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 273 Views
You still just aren't getting this. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 285 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 138 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. Tom - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9439 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 134 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 474 Views
True. But English uses the reflexive in that scenario, not the personal pronoun. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:05:30 PM 313 Views
That was atrocious Latin. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 508 Views
I was very drunk, and it wasn't that bad even had I been sober. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:04:12 PM 407 Views
Parare means, first and foremost, to prepare, supply or make something available. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:50:22 AM 409 Views
It also means to buy, and it frequently has that meaning when it's with the dative. No dice. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:31:01 AM 547 Views
Now you're pulling things out of your ass (about parare, at least) Tom - 23/05/2010 02:32:58 AM 278 Views
I unfortunately don't have the OLD, and no, I'm not. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:41:22 AM 319 Views
So I looked up the word in Lewis & Short. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:49:19 AM 277 Views
Interestingly enough, the Oxford Latin Dictionary doesn't have one use of the dative for "to buy". Tom - 23/05/2010 02:51:54 PM 489 Views
Hm. I guess I have to concede defeat in this, then. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:21:29 PM 302 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 301 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 133 Views
C'est moi. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 497 Views
One additional thought. everynametaken - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 430 Views
Let me clarify. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 296 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. everynametaken - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 284 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... damookster - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 336 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 134 Views
You clearly had an unusually good teacher. That's exactly what should be taught. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:00:58 PM 295 Views
That is what I was taught... Dominic - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 587 Views
Same. TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 319 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* Gena - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 297 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! Monkey - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 309 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 244 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar Larry - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 411 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. Tom - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 423 Views
True Larry - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 286 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. Tom - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 490 Views
I guess I did Larry - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 554 Views
Those all sound boring. Tom - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 455 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point Larry - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 471 Views
Avendesora - 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 422 Views
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