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I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM
Whether there is a wedding or not, whether there is a priest or not, there is a license that must be applied for, signed by a recognized authority, and filed in order for the union to be legally recognized. People who have church weddings are already doing both things (participating in the sacrament and filing the legal document), and people who don't have church weddings are only doing one of them.

And the fact that those who have a religious marriage have a priest pronounce the magical words, instead of the legal authorities, rather than having him do so *in addition* to the legal authorities.


I don't think it should matter who says the magic words :P or that religious officials should not have the same ability as civil officials to obtain that authority. Unless we also make it so that Elvis impersonators or other costumed interpreters can't say the magic words either, my point being that couples who have been granted a license to marry (have their legal union recognized by the state) have a great deal of choice in who they have perform the actual ceremony. It's not a violation of separation of church and state IMO unless the state requires the involvement of a religious official or requires religious officials to perform the ceremony against the dictates of their church (as suggested in the OP).
If you are from Betelgeuse, please have one of your Earth friends read what I've written before you respond. Or try concentrating harder.

"The trophy problem has become extreme."
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 2045 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1374 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1361 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1398 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1326 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1193 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1254 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1330 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1279 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1249 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 635 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1383 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1237 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1299 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1126 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1386 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 661 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 683 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1295 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1292 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1274 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1275 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1315 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1200 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1345 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1362 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1197 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1147 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1253 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1286 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1175 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1283 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1244 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1191 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1303 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1248 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1204 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1221 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1254 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1219 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1114 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1235 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1211 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1310 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1176 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 1042 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1103 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1206 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1291 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1293 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1198 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1155 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 610 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1358 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1284 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1236 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1161 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1236 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1276 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1163 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 1046 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1092 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1307 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 607 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 664 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 543 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1153 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1225 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1316 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1255 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1237 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1162 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1140 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1249 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1176 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1313 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1284 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 441 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1270 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1264 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 610 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1123 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1055 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 575 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1096 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1078 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1055 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 634 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1116 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1126 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 1026 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1143 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1239 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1262 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1291 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1268 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1326 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1195 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1333 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1156 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1208 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1210 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1192 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1251 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1085 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1113 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1135 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1149 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1259 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1206 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1297 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1147 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1260 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1333 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 672 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 652 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1212 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 648 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1227 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1188 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1075 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1587 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1410 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 530 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 1021 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1221 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 677 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1214 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 619 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1307 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1203 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1339 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1289 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1335 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1221 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1154 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1188 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1118 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1205 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 1023 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1190 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1335 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 978 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 568 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 571 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1229 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 656 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1297 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1335 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 488 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1239 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1137 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1199 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1131 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1239 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 1162 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1336 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1262 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1189 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1231 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1181 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 1020 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1324 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 668 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 631 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1400 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1345 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1265 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1095 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1269 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 618 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 638 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1245 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1500 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1141 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1333 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1119 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1334 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1214 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1194 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1133 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1195 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1122 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1215 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1197 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1189 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1098 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1169 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1404 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1236 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1225 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1216 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1137 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1417 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1181 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1191 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1180 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1480 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1281 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1084 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1084 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1149 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1173 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1188 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1294 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 667 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1317 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 608 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1312 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1211 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 1014 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 512 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1111 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 654 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1051 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1170 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1047 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1226 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1264 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 520 Views
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