Active Users:576 Time:20/03/2026 11:19:59 AM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
Starting again Camilla Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM
This is the point:

Marriage has two meanings in society. One is religious, the other is legal. What religious people who oppose gay marriage do is conflate the two.

They pretend that because their religion does not recognise homosexuality as a valid way of life, and they would not be allowed to marry in their church, that means that they should not be allowed to marry full stop. By doing this they deny homosexuals a range of legal rights that are granted heterosexuals.

What you are doing is accepting this very silly conflation of two concepts which happen to have the same name and a related outward appearance (two people joined).

This is a mistake because it means you are not questioning the very basic flaw in their argument, but attempting to argue on the basis of their premise.

There is no reason why a church should be made to marry homosexuals, mainly because there is no reason why homosexuals should want to be married in a church that doesn't want to marry them. This argument is therefore a complete derailment of a very important debate.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
Reply to message
Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 2062 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1395 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1387 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1414 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1344 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1211 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1274 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1350 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1298 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1266 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 641 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1404 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1255 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1324 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1149 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1407 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 668 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 692 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1313 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1310 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1292 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1295 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1335 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1217 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1362 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1382 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1213 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1165 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1273 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1307 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1192 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1300 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1265 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1210 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1324 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1266 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1225 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1238 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1272 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1235 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1131 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1250 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1231 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1327 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1194 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 1063 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1119 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1224 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1312 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1312 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1222 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1173 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 619 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1383 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1310 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1252 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1183 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1258 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1294 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1188 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 1063 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1110 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1326 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 615 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 673 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 550 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1171 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1244 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1334 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1271 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1253 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1178 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1160 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1271 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1198 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1327 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1306 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 448 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1292 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1281 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 618 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1141 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1076 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 582 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1117 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1095 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1072 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 644 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1134 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1143 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 1046 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1160 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1258 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1283 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1312 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1288 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1346 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1218 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1356 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1173 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1229 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1225 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1213 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1274 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1102 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1129 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1157 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1166 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1276 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1224 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1326 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1164 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1277 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1356 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 681 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 661 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1228 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 655 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1246 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1206 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1092 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1602 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1432 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 536 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 1039 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1240 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 685 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1232 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 625 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1327 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1225 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1356 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1308 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1354 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1242 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1180 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1209 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1138 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1223 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 1043 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1210 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1348 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 992 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 576 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 583 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1250 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 663 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1314 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1354 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 494 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1269 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1150 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1220 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1149 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1263 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 1182 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1349 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1278 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1206 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1248 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1202 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 1035 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1341 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 675 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 636 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1422 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1363 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1291 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1119 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1291 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 624 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 645 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1273 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1523 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1157 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1351 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1137 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1356 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1239 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1213 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1149 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1214 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1142 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1236 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1215 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1207 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1116 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1187 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1426 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1258 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1250 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1234 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1158 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1437 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1203 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1208 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1196 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1498 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1297 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1103 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1103 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1170 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1195 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1208 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1316 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 676 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1338 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 615 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1330 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1231 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 1030 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 520 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1129 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 662 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1072 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1186 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1080 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1244 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1285 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 528 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes