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It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM
having the approval of an organisation dedicated to an imaginary bigot in the sky.

There are far more important discrimination going on than not being able to get married in a specific church.


Having a separate, but totally just the same legal situation, is a problem. Not being able to get married in the eyes of the state is the problem.

I know that if I wanted to go get married to Roland00, I'd first need to get his ass to move up here, but then I could go get my Methodist Reverend friend to officiate our marriage and in the eyes of that church, we'd be married. It'd be nice, and sweet, and I'd get lots of presents from my friends... and several cold shoulders from family members... but the state would still look at us as two legally distinct individuals.

Which is different than my sister who met her boyfriend, got knocked up, and decided she didn't want to have her baby out of wedlock... she went from dating to pregnant to engaged in less than five months. As soon as their signatures were dry on the paper, and turned into the court clerk, they were legally a unit in the eyes of the government. Her property became his, and his hers. They suddenly had thousands of legal rights that I could never have access to, if I decided to marry Matt. And he dragged himself to Washington. ;)
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.

You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill

*MySmiley*
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 2044 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1372 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1359 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1398 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1325 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1193 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1252 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1329 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1277 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1248 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 634 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1382 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1235 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1299 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1126 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1385 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 661 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 683 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1292 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1292 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1271 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1275 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1313 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1199 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1345 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1362 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1196 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1147 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1253 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1284 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1173 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1280 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1244 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1191 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1300 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1246 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1202 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1219 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1252 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1217 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1114 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1234 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1209 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1310 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1176 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 1042 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1102 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1206 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1289 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1292 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1196 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1155 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 610 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1356 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1284 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1234 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1160 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1234 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1275 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1161 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 1043 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1090 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1305 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 607 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 664 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 543 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1152 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1224 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1315 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1255 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1237 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1161 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1138 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1247 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1172 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1311 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1284 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 441 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1268 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1262 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 610 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1121 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1054 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 575 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1095 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1076 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1055 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 634 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1115 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1124 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 1025 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1143 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1238 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1261 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1291 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1267 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1326 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1194 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1333 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1155 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1206 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1210 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1189 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1251 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1085 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1112 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1135 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1146 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1259 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1205 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1296 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1147 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1258 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1331 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 672 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 652 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1212 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 648 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1227 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1186 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1075 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1586 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1410 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 529 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 1019 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1221 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 677 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1213 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 619 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1305 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1200 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1339 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1287 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1334 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1221 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1153 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1188 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1118 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1204 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 1022 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1190 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1335 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 978 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 568 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 571 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1229 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 655 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1295 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1333 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 488 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1239 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1134 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1198 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1131 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1239 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 1162 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1336 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1261 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1187 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1231 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1177 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 1020 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1322 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 668 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 631 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1398 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1344 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1265 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1093 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1269 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 617 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 638 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1245 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1500 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1141 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1332 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1118 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1334 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1214 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1194 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1131 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1194 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1118 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1211 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1194 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1189 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1097 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1168 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1404 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1236 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1225 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1214 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1137 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1415 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1180 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1191 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1180 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1480 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1279 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1082 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1083 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1148 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1172 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1186 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1294 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 667 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1316 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 607 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1312 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1210 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 1011 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 512 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1109 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 654 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1048 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1169 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1046 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1224 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1263 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 520 Views
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