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Actually, I agree with that snoopcester Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM
Shouldn't it have a different name? Didn't marriage between two individuals (a man and a woman by the way) start because of religion well before any type of governmental structure?


I mean, I don't think in a material way it makes an ounce of difference but I think it would make it clear to those who get confused that it is a different thing. I think the state should offer "civil unions" instead of "marriage" - exactly the same as it offers now but rebranded, strictly secular and for all without prejudice based on sexuality. The term marriage would then be completely free from the regulation of the state and a private matter dealt with by individuals.

Let's not get off on a "seperate but equal" debate or a name debate. This is more of a "Didn't marriage start because of religion?" debate.
*MySmiley*

Robert Graves "There is no money in poetry, but then there is no poetry in money, either."

Henning Mankell "We must defend the open society, because if we start locking our doors, if we let fear decide, the person who committed the act of terror will win"
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 2095 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1427 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1413 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1451 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1376 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1251 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1311 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1392 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1336 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1295 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 662 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1433 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1287 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1358 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1180 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1452 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 695 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 712 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1348 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1339 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1331 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1327 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1366 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1250 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1408 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1419 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1247 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1200 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1301 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1338 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1226 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1336 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1304 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1242 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1356 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1306 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1260 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1270 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1302 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1268 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1164 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1282 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1265 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1366 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1231 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 1092 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1158 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1255 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1339 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1350 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1249 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1203 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 637 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1418 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1360 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1310 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1220 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1294 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1324 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1221 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 1097 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1146 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1363 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 640 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 692 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 572 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1208 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1272 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1371 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1307 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1293 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1218 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1192 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1305 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1235 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1361 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1346 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 469 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1326 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1332 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 634 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1175 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1111 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 602 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1142 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1124 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1112 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 667 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1168 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1172 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 1075 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1194 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1287 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1304 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1341 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1320 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1378 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1252 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1395 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1211 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1265 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1254 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1250 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1305 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1134 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1163 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1197 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1205 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1305 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1258 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1362 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1193 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1310 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1390 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 700 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 680 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1260 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 673 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1276 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1248 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1126 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1634 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1466 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 554 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 1073 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1272 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 707 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1263 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 648 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1365 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1265 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1396 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1340 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1392 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1279 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1219 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1239 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1172 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1259 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 1069 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1240 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1386 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 1024 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 595 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 598 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1286 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 680 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1344 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1386 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 513 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1311 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1180 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1259 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1185 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1304 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 1205 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1380 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1311 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1246 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1273 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1234 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 1068 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1370 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 698 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 654 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1455 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1398 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1326 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1152 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1321 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 642 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 668 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1316 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1554 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1198 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1381 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1176 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1389 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1280 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1248 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1194 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1247 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1170 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1274 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1250 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1244 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1148 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1217 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1461 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1299 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1280 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1269 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1198 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1467 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1247 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1245 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1226 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1527 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1330 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1143 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1141 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1202 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1235 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1239 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1351 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 694 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1372 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 636 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1365 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1277 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 1060 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 541 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1163 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 682 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1101 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1227 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1115 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1276 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1322 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 546 Views
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