Active Users:621 Time:20/03/2026 11:27:23 AM
Not so quick! MalkierKnight Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
I've just done some research on that case. BSA was only allowed to dismiss him on the grounds that association with homosexuals "altered" the boy scouts "expressive message."

The expressive message of christianity is a broad and varied thing, but it certainly is not anti-gay. Sin, throughout christianity, is embraced and accepted as part of life we must forgive and deal with.

This, in a nutshell, is my whole point. In fact, your mention of BSA v. Dale only strengthens my points because it states that the expressive message of the church must be altered by marrying gays. Or, as I said it, the essence of christianity.

I don't see how the expressive message of christianity is altered in any way by gay marriage. And I challenge you to show me.


There is not a single "expressive message" for Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox churches definitely wouldn't recognize Benny Hinn's ministry as "Christianity." Nor would the Catholics call the little home cell churches run by a single pastor with his family making up the flock the same thing as their Church.

Each Church, at least in America, is considered its own legal entity. There certainly are churches whose message of biblical literalism where homosexuality is condemned as an abomination would be altered by forcing them to perform and condone gay marriages.

Your challenge was accepted and easily defeated. Thank you, come again.


Obviously there are countless denominations out there. Which is why discrimination ought to be analyzed on a case by case basis. If there's a church out there that says gay people are demons on earth, then marrying them clearly effects their expressive message.

However, many churches allow and permit sinning of many kinds. They do this because there is an admission that every human being is a sinner and that we must acknowledge that fact before we can become one with god.

Churches, as I stated in a different post below this one, often "sanction" sin, after a fashion or at the very least, permit it. This happens in case of divorce or premarital sex and a number of other issues I can't think off hand. I go into a lot more depth in the other post, so you can check there if you want, but you seem quick enough to get the gist of it.

So saying it's illegal to ban gay marriage is not altering the expressive message of a number of churches. If anything, it's upholding it.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
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Gay Marriage - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 2062 Views
I disagree on the latter part - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1396 Views
I follow your point... - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1389 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1414 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1344 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1211 Views
You didn't read my post. - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1275 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1351 Views
Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1300 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1266 Views
You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1405 Views
Re: You're still wrong. - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1255 Views
Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1325 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1149 Views
Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1408 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 668 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 692 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1314 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1312 Views
Also also: - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1292 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1295 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1336 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1219 Views
Also - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1362 Views
And wrong again. - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1384 Views
Not so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1214 Views
Yes, so quick! - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1165 Views
Let's be reasonable here - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1274 Views
Why do you get to judge? - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1309 Views
I don't - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1192 Views
OK. - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1302 Views
Re: OK. - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1265 Views
Then please stop. - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1266 Views
What's wrong with discussion? - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1225 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1238 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1272 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1235 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1131 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1250 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1232 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1328 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1194 Views
You are wrong - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 1063 Views
Really? - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1120 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1224 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1312 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1312 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1223 Views
Gah. - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1174 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 619 Views
What a mature response. - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1384 Views
Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1311 Views
Re: Yes. - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1254 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1184 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1258 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1294 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1189 Views
+1 - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 1063 Views
Hehe - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1112 Views
Um - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1326 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 615 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 673 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 550 Views
It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1172 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1244 Views
Re: It makes no sense - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1336 Views
It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1271 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1253 Views
Nonsense - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1178 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1161 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1272 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1199 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1327 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1307 Views
*NM* - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 448 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1293 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1281 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 618 Views
really? - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1141 Views
- 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1076 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 582 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1118 Views
Which is interesting - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1095 Views
Yes - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1072 Views
Original poster. *NM* - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 644 Views
- 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1135 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1145 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 1047 Views
Ya know?!? - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1161 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1259 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1283 Views
There is a difference... - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1312 Views
No you don't. - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1288 Views
That's another concern - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1346 Views
Not quite my point - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1218 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1356 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1174 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1274 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1102 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1129 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1158 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1168 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1277 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1225 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1327 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1164 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1278 Views
Of course it would - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1356 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 681 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 661 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1228 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 655 Views
Simples - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1247 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1206 Views
So. - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1093 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1602 Views
Agreed *NM* - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 536 Views
I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 1039 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1240 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 685 Views
Naturally. - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1232 Views
I know I do *NM* - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 625 Views
Another thing - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1327 Views
A couple of things - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1227 Views
I disagree - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1356 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1309 Views
there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1354 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1242 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1182 Views
One point about Prop. 8 - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1209 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1139 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1223 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 1043 Views
there are major flaws in your argument - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1348 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 993 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 576 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 583 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1252 Views
I feel your pain *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 663 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1314 Views
100% agreed. - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1355 Views
This. *NM* - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 494 Views
You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1270 Views
By that token - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1150 Views
My God.... - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1221 Views
no You are absolutely wrong - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1150 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1264 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1349 Views
Fair enough. - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1280 Views
Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1206 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1248 Views
So then.... - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1203 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 1035 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1342 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1422 Views
+1 - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1363 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1292 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1119 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1293 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 624 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 645 Views
It's not snarky. - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1274 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1524 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1159 Views
*shrug* - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1351 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1139 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1356 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1239 Views
LOL - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1213 Views
Re: LOL - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1151 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1214 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1142 Views
No, marriage started because of property. - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1237 Views
So then two things come to mind... - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1215 Views
Only two? - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1208 Views
Is this the same guy... - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1116 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1187 Views
That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1426 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1259 Views
Oh, I hope not - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1251 Views
I may be wrong - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1234 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1160 Views
True enough - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1438 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1204 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1209 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1196 Views
moot, not mute - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1498 Views
damn - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1297 Views
Actually, I agree with that - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1103 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1104 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1171 Views
Rights.... - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1196 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1208 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1316 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 676 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1338 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 615 Views
Starting again - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1331 Views
Not at all - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1233 Views
Re: Not at all - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 1032 Views
Agreed *NM* - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 520 Views
Oh dear - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1129 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 662 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1073 Views
I'm curious - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1186 Views
- 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1080 Views
Okay, good. - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1246 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1285 Views
very nicely said *NM* - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 528 Views

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