Do you have documents proving this assumption, or is it passed down verbal traditions?
I'm sure a cursory google would find the documents and research showing the roots of marriage are in the property transaction. So, no it is not a verbal tradition.
And secondly, who are you (and the minority who have chosen a similar lifestyle) to change something that's been as defined for pretty much existance? Why should society change something so fundamental to accomidate you? [ Note: I'm not saying this in an arguing way, but more to get you to articulate why society should change to fit you. Change my mind. ]
Marriage has always changed based on the needs of the society in question. In societies where there were more men than women we find polyandry, and in societies with either more women or a strong hierarchical structure we find polygyny. In societies where homosexual relationships were considered normal there are examples of homosexual marriages.
In our modern American sense, marriage has dual meanings, the secular side which involves all of the rights granted to married couples and all the government benefits, and we have the religious side which is fluidly defined based on which religion one follows.
I, unlike the original poster, do not want to touch the second half. Religious institutions have a right to define their own beliefs and practices. They are a choice. I choose to belong to my church, you to yours, and some choose to belong to none.
We cannot, however, continue to deny people the same rights and opportunities based simply on who they wish to partner with (assuming all are consenting adults). Either our government, the secular institution that governs over us all regardless of our individual faiths and beliefs, must treat everyone equally or they must not offer those benefits.
Taking marriage to its most secular format, a contractual agreement between two parties to cohabitate, share expenses, and share incomes, to be mutually responsible for each other. The government has found that recognizing stable relationships such as this format creates more societal stability, regardless of the genders involved. Not less. The government has found that people who cohabitate and share expenses and incomes are significantly financially different than their peers who do not cohabitate and share incomes and expenses. Because of that acknowledged difference, the government gives those who do cohabitate and share tax benefits. Currently, the tax codes exclude homosexual partners from receiving those benefits, despite the fact that they are the same as their heterosexual peers who also cohabitate and share incomes and expenses.
Based on the purely secular understanding of marriage, allowing two men or two women to marry does not alter its meaning, its intent, or anything else about it.
The religious meaning and intent of marriage changes from church to church, religion to religion, faith to faith. I read an article recently about an Indian man marrying a cow, with the blessings of his local temple and his village. That wouldn't fly in a Christian church, or anywhere in America, but it made sense in their culture for their definition of marriage. For obvious reasons that marriage wouldn't be valid here, but you see my point. Yes?
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.
You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill
*MySmiley*
You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill
*MySmiley*
Gay Marriage
- 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM
2118 Views
I disagree on the latter part
- 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM
1449 Views
I follow your point...
- 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM
1430 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously.
- 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM
1471 Views
See, that's what I'm saying...
- 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM
1396 Views
You didn't read my post.
- 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM
1328 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post
- 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM
1411 Views
Um, you're wrong.
- 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM
1351 Views
- 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM
1351 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong.
- 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
1314 Views
- 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
1314 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM
674 Views
You're still wrong.
- 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM
1452 Views
- 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM
1452 Views
Re: You're still wrong.
- 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM
1303 Views
- 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM
1303 Views
Again, you are still wrong.
- 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM
1380 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM
1380 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong.
- 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM
1198 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM
1198 Views
Wrong definition of "club"
- 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM
1470 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club"
- 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM
1371 Views
Also
- 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM
1425 Views
And wrong again.
- 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM
1438 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM
1438 Views
Not so quick!
- 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
1268 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
1268 Views
Yes, so quick!
- 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM
1219 Views
Let's be reasonable here
- 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM
1324 Views
Why do you get to judge?
- 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM
1357 Views
I don't
- 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM
1251 Views
OK.
- 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM
1354 Views
Re: OK.
- 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM
1323 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
- 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM
1263 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
- 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM
1377 Views
Then please stop.
- 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM
1326 Views
- 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM
1326 Views
What's wrong with discussion?
- 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM
1288 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something.
- 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM
1291 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
- 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM
1179 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
- 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM
1302 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
- 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM
1285 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
- 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM
1383 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes.
- 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM
1277 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
- 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM
1372 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
- 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM
1272 Views
Gah.
- 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM
1225 Views
What a mature response.
- 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM
1437 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se.
- 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM
1239 Views
Um
- 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM
1390 Views
That's a very good question. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM
650 Views
It makes no sense
- 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM
1227 Views
Re: It makes no sense
- 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM
1293 Views
Re: It makes no sense
- 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM
1395 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
- 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM
1216 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
- 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM
1330 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
- 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM
1383 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
- 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM
1356 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that!
*NM*
- 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM
644 Views
- 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM
1129 Views
*NM*
- 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM
644 Views
- 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM
1129 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM*
- 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM
612 Views
Yes
- 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM
1172 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off.
- 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM
1191 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage
- 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM
1416 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately.
- 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM
1236 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing.
- 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM
1289 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me.
- 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM
1274 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem.
- 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM
1274 Views
What in the world would that accomplish?
- 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM
1327 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently.
- 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM
1155 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition..
- 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM
1187 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough*
- 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM
1214 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it
- 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM
1228 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit.
- 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM
1326 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better
- 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM
1278 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful?
- 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM
1384 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic
- 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM
1217 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM
710 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views
*NM*
- 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM
690 Views
*NM*
- 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM
690 Views
Simples
- 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM
1302 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism
- 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM
1269 Views
So.
- 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM
1147 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad
- 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM
1662 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny
- 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM
1491 Views
- 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM
1491 Views
Agreed *NM*
- 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM
568 Views
I love you, Camilla
- 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM
1095 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla
- 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM
1295 Views
A couple of things
- 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM
1287 Views
there is major flaw in your argument
- 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM
1415 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument
- 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM
1302 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage
- 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM
1242 Views
One point about Prop. 8
- 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM
1263 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong
- 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM
1194 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it.
- 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM
1283 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons
- 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM
1094 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions.
- 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM
1262 Views
there are major flaws in your argument
- 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM
1406 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church.
- 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM
1045 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional.
- 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM
1366 Views
You are absolutely wrong
- 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM
1334 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin.
- 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM
1225 Views
Why do people equate....
- 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM
1274 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning...
- 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM
1298 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM*
- 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM
713 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM
670 Views
Re: Why do people equate....
- 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM
1479 Views
+1
- 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM
1420 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla.
- 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM
1350 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed"
- 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM
1175 Views
Which speaks highly of you....
- 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM
1347 Views
This is being very petty. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM
656 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM*
- 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM
681 Views
It's not snarky.
- 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM
1341 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment...
- 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM
1577 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations?
- 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM
1218 Views
Re: Why do people equate....
- 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM
1421 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious
- 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM
1273 Views
Ok, so if the state does then...
- 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM
1196 Views
No, marriage started because of property.
- 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM
1295 Views
So then two things come to mind...
- 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM
1275 Views
Only two?
- 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM
1265 Views
- 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM
1265 Views
That's a little difficult to do
- 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM
1482 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do
- 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM
1337 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights
- 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM
1268 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back...
- 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM
1270 Views
Actually, I agree with that
- 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM
1165 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about
- 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM
1259 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state.
- 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM
1374 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM*
- 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM
707 Views
Starting again
- 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM
1386 Views
Not at all
- 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM
1301 Views
Re: Not at all
- 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM
1079 Views
Agreed *NM*
- 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM
552 Views
Oh dear
- 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM
1183 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft?
- 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM
1343 Views

*NM*
*NM*
*NM*