I've just done some research on that case. BSA was only allowed to dismiss him on the grounds that association with homosexuals "altered" the boy scouts "expressive message."
The expressive message of christianity is a broad and varied thing, but it certainly is not anti-gay. Sin, throughout christianity, is embraced and accepted as part of life we must forgive and deal with.
This, in a nutshell, is my whole point. In fact, your mention of BSA v. Dale only strengthens my points because it states that the expressive message of the church must be altered by marrying gays. Or, as I said it, the essence of christianity.
I don't see how the expressive message of christianity is altered in any way by gay marriage. And I challenge you to show me.
The expressive message of christianity is a broad and varied thing, but it certainly is not anti-gay. Sin, throughout christianity, is embraced and accepted as part of life we must forgive and deal with.
This, in a nutshell, is my whole point. In fact, your mention of BSA v. Dale only strengthens my points because it states that the expressive message of the church must be altered by marrying gays. Or, as I said it, the essence of christianity.
I don't see how the expressive message of christianity is altered in any way by gay marriage. And I challenge you to show me.
There is not a single "expressive message" for Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox churches definitely wouldn't recognize Benny Hinn's ministry as "Christianity." Nor would the Catholics call the little home cell churches run by a single pastor with his family making up the flock the same thing as their Church.
Each Church, at least in America, is considered its own legal entity. There certainly are churches whose message of biblical literalism where homosexuality is condemned as an abomination would be altered by forcing them to perform and condone gay marriages.
Your challenge was accepted and easily defeated. Thank you, come again.
Obviously there are countless denominations out there. Which is why discrimination ought to be analyzed on a case by case basis. If there's a church out there that says gay people are demons on earth, then marrying them clearly effects their expressive message.
However, many churches allow and permit sinning of many kinds. They do this because there is an admission that every human being is a sinner and that we must acknowledge that fact before we can become one with god.
Churches, as I stated in a different post below this one, often "sanction" sin, after a fashion or at the very least, permit it. This happens in case of divorce or premarital sex and a number of other issues I can't think off hand. I go into a lot more depth in the other post, so you can check there if you want, but you seem quick enough to get the gist of it.
So saying it's illegal to ban gay marriage is not altering the expressive message of a number of churches. If anything, it's upholding it.
Unless you are a member of each of those churches, or have done an exhaustive study that was confirmed by members of those churches, you cannot speak to their expressive message as a whole.
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.
You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill
*MySmiley*
You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill
*MySmiley*
Gay Marriage
12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM
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I disagree on the latter part
12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM
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I follow your point...
12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM
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Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously.
12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM
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See, that's what I'm saying...
12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM
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You didn't read my post.
12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM
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Actually, you didn't read my post
12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM
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Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM
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Re: Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
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Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM
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You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM
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Re: You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM
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Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM
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Re: Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM
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Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM
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Re: Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM
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Also
12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM
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And wrong again.
12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM
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Not so quick!
12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
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Yes, so quick!
12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM
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Let's be reasonable here
12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM
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Why do you get to judge?
12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM
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I don't
12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM
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OK.
12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM
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Re: OK.
12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM
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Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM
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Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM
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Then please stop.
12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM
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What's wrong with discussion?
12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM
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Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something.
12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM
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What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM
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Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM
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Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM
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Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM
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Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes.
12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM
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Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM
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Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM
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Gah.
12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM
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What a mature response.
12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM
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I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se.
12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM
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Um
12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM
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That's a very good question. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM
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It makes no sense
12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM
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Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM
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Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM
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What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM
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Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM
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Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that!
*NM*
13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM
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13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM
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Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM*
13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM
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Yes
13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM
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Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off.
12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM
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secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage
12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM
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Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately.
12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM
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And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing.
12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM
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It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me.
12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM
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I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem.
12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM
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What in the world would that accomplish?
12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM
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Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently.
12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM
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the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition..
12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM
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heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough*
12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM
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thats OK I am sure you will get over it
12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM
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Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit.
12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM
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Really? I was hoping for something better
12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM
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So government recognition makes your religion meaningful?
12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM
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not my religion I'm agnostic
12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM
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I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM*
12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM
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no but your are European and that slants your views
*NM*
12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM
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Simples
12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM
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there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism
12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM
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So.
14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM
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sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad
14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM
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You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny
15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM
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Agreed *NM*
12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM
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I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM
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Re: I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM
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A couple of things
12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM
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there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM
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Re: there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM
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I should clarify that I support gay marriage
12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM
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One point about Prop. 8
12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM
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I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong
12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM
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Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it.
12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM
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that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons
12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM
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Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions.
12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM
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there are major flaws in your argument
12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM
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Women can't be priests in the Catholic church.
12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM
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Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional.
12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM
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You are absolutely wrong
12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM
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Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin.
13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM
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Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM
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Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning...
12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM
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Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM*
12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM
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I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM
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Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM
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+1
12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM
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Stop with the pile on Camilla.
12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM
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You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed"
12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM
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Which speaks highly of you....
12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM
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This is being very petty. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM
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As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM*
12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM
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It's not snarky.
12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM
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Its a +1 shorthand comment...
12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM
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Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations?
12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM
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Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM
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you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious
12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM
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Ok, so if the state does then...
12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM
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No, marriage started because of property.
12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM
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So then two things come to mind...
12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM
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Only two?
12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM
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That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM
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Re: That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM
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yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights
13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM
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The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back...
13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM
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Actually, I agree with that
12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM
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See, what I don't get is why gay people care about
12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM
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It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state.
12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM
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I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM*
12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM
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Starting again
12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM
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Not at all
12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM
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Re: Not at all
13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM
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Agreed *NM*
13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM
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Oh dear
13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM
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I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft?
12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM
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