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OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM
Because regardless of how your great great grandparents got married or how much milk she shoots out her nose giggling the tradition of church marriage has been around for centuries. Yes there are other old traditions that we have gotten rid but this is a very popular tradition. Millions of girls spend hours planning the perfect church wedding. Millions of dads spend tens of thousands of dollars giving their little princess the perfect church wedding. Now we should make that marriage a fake ceremony to advance the social engineering goals of the far left fringe?

Good luck selling that.


Why does requiring another government process make a religious marriage fake?


It doesn't but we already have that.


I said requiring ANOTHER process... separating the church ceremony from the secular legal procedure shouldn't make any marriage ceremony "fake."
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.

You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill

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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 2135 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1466 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1462 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1500 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1413 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1293 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1341 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1427 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1363 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1325 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 688 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1471 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1320 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1395 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1221 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1490 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 717 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 733 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1409 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1384 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1373 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1367 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1403 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1291 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1442 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1453 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1285 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1233 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1342 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1378 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1279 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1373 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1342 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1284 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1396 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1347 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1303 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1308 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1340 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1303 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1196 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1321 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1317 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1418 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1272 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 1128 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1196 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1290 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1375 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1389 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1292 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1244 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 658 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1463 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1400 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1356 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1257 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1335 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1364 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1253 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 1141 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1185 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1410 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 662 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 714 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 600 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1248 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1311 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1412 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1345 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1331 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1253 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1233 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1363 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1274 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1399 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1385 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 493 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1362 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1393 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 654 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1221 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1143 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 622 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1198 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1170 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1152 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 707 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1201 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1214 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 1115 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1238 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1334 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1343 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1379 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1376 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1431 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1290 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1433 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1265 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1307 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1293 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1289 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1345 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1172 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1216 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1229 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1244 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1343 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1290 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1404 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1235 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1349 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1434 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 719 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 699 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1301 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 691 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1324 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1287 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1166 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1680 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1519 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 578 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 1116 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1310 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 731 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1303 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 673 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1410 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1304 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1440 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1387 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1436 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1317 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1260 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1277 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1206 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1299 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 1108 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1279 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1439 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 1062 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 616 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 619 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1323 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 704 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1380 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1423 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 536 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1348 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1218 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1301 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1225 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1342 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 1243 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1420 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1359 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1303 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1324 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1274 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 1109 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1427 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 724 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 679 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1499 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1442 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1369 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1191 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1389 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 685 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 702 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1352 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1607 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1229 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1422 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1218 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1436 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1319 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1284 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1228 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1286 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1206 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1322 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1287 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1293 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1193 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1271 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1504 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1356 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1313 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1308 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1241 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1512 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1287 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1284 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1264 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1566 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1367 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1179 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1184 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1240 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1267 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1281 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1389 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 716 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1402 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 656 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1403 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1327 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 1099 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 579 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1200 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 704 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1147 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1282 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1148 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1312 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1362 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 565 Views
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