Just so long as we're both on the 'multi-front solution' page
Isaac Send a noteboard - 16/08/2010 08:35:06 PM
but so many people just focus on the border itself and worry about building a big enough/good enough fence and patrolling it constantly in its entirety. So few people focus on the bigger issues in regards to illegal immigration that can proactively decrease it, such as process reform and drug reform.
Well, people will raft around a fence too, overstay visas, etc but its like any other battle, you don't scrap buying tanks because someone notes the enemy has an air force, you buy some AA batteries and jet fighters too. You can't stop it with a fence, but you can throttle it back, ideally making it a bigger pain in the ass to break the law than follow it. The fence, really, has to do with 'comfort zone', it bugs a lot of us than you can literally walk across the border, but it's hardly just symbolism, a big electric fence really is a serious impediment.
Just for some rough numbers, I have a friend (a wotmaniac-friend) who's husband is from Australia. Our good old friend Australia, yes? To come to the States, he had to wait a full year and pay thousands of dollars. He yearly has to pay a good chunk of money (I believe it's around 1k dollars) to stay on his particular visa/green card. This is exacerbated a bit, as they are not pursuing citizenship (When she finishes school, they plan to move back to Aus).
It isn't easy to do it legally, but it's easier than get into other countries, and that most countries have very relaxed policies about letting Americans visit it is only because they know 'visit' is what 99% of them intend, and that visit = spend money, and most of the remainder go the legal route. It's not particularly cheap or easy to move to any country and probably shouldn't be. There's actually very few countries with 'anchor baby' laws or anything approaching easy routes to immigration. Fees, well, the government soaks anyone it can anyway it can for money, and I guess the general feeling is 'If you can't afford a thousand bucks to move here, honestly we're not sure we want you', from an external POV, most of us would not feel horribly screwed over if we decided to attend school in Germany or France and they said 'fine, it takes a while, and it will cost you $1000 a year', that makes a lot of sense, you are taking up official time, their taxpayers have to pay for those bureaucrats tracking everything otherwise.
My main point in this is that it requires a great deal of time and money to come to the US legally, even for someone from a country like Australia, and who is working in a relatively desired field (he's a techie). Is it really a surprise that impoverished Mexicans without a hope in their own country look at the finances and time required for proper immigration, and choose to chance a border jump instead? This isn't to say we should just let them all in or not remove them, but people in desperate circumstances will find away around a fence. An entire shark-infested sea doesn't stop the Cubans.
It's probably worth noting that cuban's refugees tend to be held in higher esteem, partially because they go through that shark sea
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
At what point does it become ok to take over a country?
16/08/2010 04:25:09 PM
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why would we want to make Mexico our problem? *NM*
16/08/2010 04:30:48 PM
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Yeah that's why i don't want us to take over. I think the US is already too big as is *NM*
16/08/2010 04:37:41 PM
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One might argue it already is. The other way around too, though. *NM*
16/08/2010 04:44:19 PM
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I'm fairly sure that yes, the majority of them have national pride.
16/08/2010 04:51:38 PM
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Re: I'm fairly sure that yes, the majority of them have national pride.
16/08/2010 05:11:49 PM
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Actually, make that number 120 to 150. *NM*
16/08/2010 05:14:15 PM
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We don't invade countries we can't locate on the map...
16/08/2010 06:01:43 PM
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So that means there are only five or so countries you can invade, one of them yourself?
16/08/2010 06:11:43 PM
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Re: So that means there are only five or so countries you can invade, one of them yourself?
16/08/2010 06:30:56 PM
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When they get on your nerves or have something you want, preferably both
16/08/2010 05:04:10 PM
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I agree we should attack Canada instead
16/08/2010 05:19:48 PM
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Yeah, but they don't gouge us for the oil, cost the same as anyone else *NM*
16/08/2010 05:49:38 PM
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I would legalize drugs ten times over before I would annex Mexico.
16/08/2010 05:36:37 PM
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"I would stop doing a bad thing 10 times over before I did a worse thing"? WTF? *NM*
16/08/2010 06:04:48 PM
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Read the original post. He proposes annexing Mexico due to the drug problem.
16/08/2010 06:28:54 PM
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He's just nitpicking on your phrasing in the subject line. I think. *NM*
16/08/2010 06:37:17 PM
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that sounds like a much better immigration solution idea than "let's build a GIGANTIC FENCE!!!" *NM*
16/08/2010 06:33:46 PM
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Work Visas might help, but...
16/08/2010 06:51:11 PM
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Oh i know it's not a complete solution and i have no problem with a fence
16/08/2010 07:43:26 PM
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Just so long as we're both on the 'multi-front solution' page
16/08/2010 08:35:06 PM
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it's also worth noting that no one is proposing throwing out the Cubans
16/08/2010 08:54:46 PM
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When the US says so. We are the bosses of the World, are we not? *NM*
16/08/2010 08:06:08 PM
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Not even Hitler's Germany? (if he never went to war but just stayed put) Reply to Yuna *NM*
16/08/2010 09:24:41 PM
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If he had never gone to war, that would also have meant no Holocaust... *NM*
16/08/2010 09:28:16 PM
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Really? Why is that? I'm not too terribly familiar with Hitler's reasons for mass genocide *NM*
16/08/2010 09:30:48 PM
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Dachau opened in '33, Nuremburg Laws were '35
16/08/2010 09:36:59 PM
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Ok that's what I was thinking
16/08/2010 09:45:51 PM
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Uh, yeah, see, there's a difference between "blaming" and "exterminating".
16/08/2010 09:52:37 PM
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Re: Uh, yeah, see, there's a difference between "blaming" and "exterminating".
16/08/2010 09:54:29 PM
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I don't know if there's really anything to specifically compare it to...
16/08/2010 10:00:59 PM
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Also, perhaps someone should just invoke the (variation of the) Godwin Law and stop this whole thing
16/08/2010 10:02:23 PM
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Ah,
16/08/2010 10:04:39 PM
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Nah, more like, I know I shouldn't have done this, but I couldn't resist. *NM*
16/08/2010 10:07:35 PM
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Well, you'll note I didn't make that causal relation you attribute to me.
16/08/2010 09:55:39 PM
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The Dachau follow up was bookkeeping
16/08/2010 10:05:35 PM
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I'm confused, but I'll take that as something I don't have to argue.
16/08/2010 10:09:16 PM
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Re: I'm confused, but I'll take that as something I don't have to argue.
16/08/2010 10:19:19 PM
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The US already took half of Mexico, so why not the other half?
16/08/2010 09:57:56 PM
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"Took" is an unfriendly word, we purchased it *NM*
16/08/2010 10:21:58 PM
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yes after a messy political and physical "conflict"
16/08/2010 10:53:22 PM
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There was also the Gasdsen Purchase
17/08/2010 12:30:21 AM
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The Gadsden Purchase was a pittance and an afterthought, as I'm sure you're aware.
18/08/2010 12:36:24 PM
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and why did it belong to Mexico to begin with? *NM*
17/08/2010 01:28:28 AM
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same way it seems to be the way most people who own the Americas came to own it.
17/08/2010 01:46:49 AM
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my best friend is an illegal and is going back to mexico in a few months
16/08/2010 11:28:11 PM
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every issue is simpler when you don't have faces to represent it for you. *NM*
16/08/2010 11:29:38 PM
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We should seal our border and peform drone strikes on cartels.
17/08/2010 12:58:37 AM
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Re: We should seal our border and peform drone strikes on cartels.
17/08/2010 02:39:11 AM
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Re: We should seal our border and peform drone strikes on cartels.
17/08/2010 03:34:59 AM
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I think maybe we've had enough of nation building for a while *NM*
17/08/2010 02:45:22 AM
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