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That seems a little myopic to me. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/10/2010 09:16:27 AM
(edit because I'm dumb and forgot to preview)

A question: Do you "support" atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there's no "Christian" movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?


Personally, as a Christian, I do note vote *against* Gay marriage. I wouldn't for *for* it either, though. I view homosexuality as the Bible does, as sin. I also happen to see that the Bible points out *a lot* of things as sin, like lying and adultery, and that there is little value to singling out Gay people as being some kind of "super" sinners. We've all fallen short and, while homosexuality has a much bigger "gross" factor to the rest of us, it doesn't make it legitimate grounds for demonizing folk.

Whether or not you are demonizing homosexuals, the simple fact is that they are being treated differently than all the other sinners. Sure, we're all sinners in the eyes of the Lord, great, but all those other sinners can still be married. If gays aren't super sinners, as you put it, why are they singled out in this regard? You state that you don't support gay marriage without addressing this simple disconnect. And whether or not I agree with his argument that this leads to an implicit sanctioning of their bullying or whatever other mistreatment, that kind of renders the rest of your argument rather academic.

Gays can get married under both secular and Church law to all the same people they could if they were straight. Likewise, just because I'm straight doesn't make gay sex OK in the eyes of the Church, it just means it holds no appeal for me. It LOOKS different when you're affected by it, but ultimately I don't see it any differently than saying, "My best friend married my ex-girlfriend and now God and the law say I can't; WHY DO THEY PERSECUTE ME?!!! O^" The same rules apply to everyone, but the particular form that takes will vary with the person and their actions.

At the risk of re-opening another can of worms, I'll just note in passing that there's no explicit prohibition on two men being in love or even living together as domestic partners or whatever: They just can't have sex with each other any more than they could if they were just roommates. That leads us back to how important ones sexual gratification is relative to ones faith, but it's not really about sexual orientation at all (ask any preachers daughter who's been to Prom.... :winky: )
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Love the Sinner Roland00 - 13/10/2010 04:07:28 PM 1385 Views
I have to think about that for a while. nossy - 13/10/2010 04:30:56 PM 945 Views
Suicide is significantly higher in young gay populations Roland00 - 13/10/2010 05:36:01 PM 861 Views
That is not what I think requires thought nossy - 13/10/2010 05:56:06 PM 871 Views
Nossy I ain't a mind reader, no matter how I try or how much I would do Jean Grey Roland00 - 13/10/2010 06:06:42 PM 1018 Views
for ze record nossy - 14/10/2010 02:54:07 AM 877 Views
ok now show that it caused by what Christian beliefs *NM* random thoughts - 13/10/2010 06:50:32 PM 424 Views
I don't think it's the belief's themselves LadyLorraine - 14/10/2010 12:20:01 AM 893 Views
The churches who encourage people to bully gays should be condemned random thoughts - 14/10/2010 06:43:06 PM 899 Views
Re: I have to think about that for a while. Rebekah - 13/10/2010 06:29:09 PM 881 Views
He was very frank but completely founded Fox and Ravens - 13/10/2010 04:34:46 PM 981 Views
Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian) Zalis - 13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM 977 Views
I'm not sure that is true snoopcester - 13/10/2010 05:16:30 PM 858 Views
When's the last time you heard the quote attributed to anyone else? Zalis - 13/10/2010 08:34:10 PM 835 Views
That many people don't know the correct origin doesn't change it though snoopcester - 13/10/2010 09:31:13 PM 982 Views
I think you are missing his point Roland00 - 13/10/2010 05:45:45 PM 946 Views
Question (and this one actually is asking for information )... Legolas - 13/10/2010 06:42:17 PM 765 Views
Yes and no Roland00 - 13/10/2010 06:53:26 PM 1047 Views
Okay, fair enough. *NM* Legolas - 13/10/2010 07:48:21 PM 385 Views
I would think... damookster - 14/10/2010 04:35:31 AM 923 Views
I have seen gays be bullied before random thoughts - 13/10/2010 07:02:35 PM 973 Views
You just didn't listen to a thing I said *NM* Roland00 - 13/10/2010 07:09:29 PM 404 Views
why do you believe that? Because I don't agree with what you said? random thoughts - 13/10/2010 07:30:27 PM 883 Views
I said you aren't listening to a thing I said, for you didn't respond to anything that I wrote Roland00 - 13/10/2010 07:52:50 PM 884 Views
you are not interested in talking to anyone who doesn't agree with you random thoughts - 13/10/2010 09:01:03 PM 868 Views
I think there's truth in this as well. Legolas - 13/10/2010 07:55:00 PM 902 Views
churches tend to refelect society as much if not more then they influence it random thoughts - 14/10/2010 07:15:35 PM 869 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point Zalis - 13/10/2010 08:30:42 PM 933 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point Roland00 - 13/10/2010 09:55:52 PM 946 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point Zalis - 14/10/2010 03:49:14 PM 958 Views
Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level Roland00 - 14/10/2010 05:49:22 PM 980 Views
Re: Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level Zalis - 14/10/2010 08:52:24 PM 1000 Views
Do you know greek or hebrew? Roland00 - 14/10/2010 08:57:32 PM 844 Views
I know a few words here and there, but not really. Do you? Zalis - 14/10/2010 10:46:36 PM 978 Views
There's a good case on both sides (try Strong's Concordance, if you haven't, btw. ) Joel - 15/10/2010 05:09:21 AM 1414 Views
I don't look to Christianity for my answers Roland00 - 15/10/2010 03:02:16 PM 946 Views
Re: I don't look to Christianity for my answers Zalis - 15/10/2010 04:27:25 PM 985 Views
You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point Rowland - 13/10/2010 05:51:53 PM 1009 Views
so should Christians abandon other religious conviction to stop bullying? random thoughts - 13/10/2010 07:39:54 PM 890 Views
Re: You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point Zalis - 13/10/2010 08:23:07 PM 915 Views
That seems a little myopic to me. Joel - 14/10/2010 09:16:27 AM 875 Views
Many good points there; I think I'll let you play Defender of the Faith for a bit. Joel - 14/10/2010 08:50:23 AM 1005 Views
I think he is jackass that does not believe other's can have apoint of view random thoughts - 13/10/2010 06:48:12 PM 877 Views
That's right, bullying would go away if we didn't have Christians to make moral judgements on things ßelals Girl - 13/10/2010 08:11:27 PM 964 Views
I mostly agree ironclad - 13/10/2010 08:19:00 PM 1043 Views
most of the bullies I remember from school were not known for their regular church attendance random thoughts - 14/10/2010 07:24:06 PM 853 Views
I thought I pretty much agreed with you on that point ironclad - 14/10/2010 07:44:07 PM 900 Views
Let me see if I can understand where we agree, it is hard to do with all the Sarcasm Roland00 - 13/10/2010 08:48:38 PM 931 Views
Meh. He's not entirely incorrect. But not all Christians are anti-gay. Ghavrel - 13/10/2010 08:43:04 PM 935 Views
It is better to be a Tolkein than a Token Roland00 - 13/10/2010 08:52:09 PM 896 Views
If I were a Tolkien liberal Christian, wouldn't that make me an American Roman Catholic? *NM* Ghavrel - 13/10/2010 09:18:57 PM 358 Views
Interesting scalius - 13/10/2010 08:56:46 PM 1210 Views
Sometime rants do work and change people's mind Roland00 - 13/10/2010 09:23:39 PM 835 Views
and sometoimes they are just rants *NM* random thoughts - 13/10/2010 10:01:55 PM 360 Views
Okay my response now Roland00 - 14/10/2010 06:04:02 PM 935 Views
His first three sentences were totally unecessary. The rest is conspiracy-laden nonsense. everynametaken - 14/10/2010 12:37:06 AM 1001 Views
He becomes what he hates. eucatastrophe - 14/10/2010 02:40:19 AM 1091 Views
Good stuff. *NM* Aeryn - 14/10/2010 02:56:44 AM 380 Views
Re: Gaps - 14/10/2010 03:06:36 AM 941 Views
I think Chora has dibs on that bumper sticker. Joel - 14/10/2010 09:35:02 AM 1022 Views
Re: Gaps - 14/10/2010 11:50:04 PM 1012 Views
It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Joel - 15/10/2010 01:16:10 AM 894 Views
Re: It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Gaps - 16/10/2010 05:20:56 AM 969 Views
Re: It's nothing at all like cultural relativism. Joel - 16/10/2010 07:16:21 AM 892 Views
I don't think there is any question... damookster - 14/10/2010 04:42:45 AM 904 Views
If I may quibble: Ghavrel - 14/10/2010 05:22:22 AM 767 Views
A lot of Christian doctrine states that people cannot know who is worthy of God and it's not up to Helene - 14/10/2010 05:41:19 AM 898 Views
And a lot of Christians who should know better forget this. Joel - 14/10/2010 10:16:51 AM 962 Views
He's bullying Christians Helene - 14/10/2010 04:47:13 AM 887 Views
I agree BlackAdder - 14/10/2010 04:09:23 PM 967 Views
I think he's reading a lot of things into that letter that aren't there. Joel - 14/10/2010 08:22:13 AM 861 Views
Two seperate things are mingled here Bramhodoulos - 14/10/2010 09:50:42 AM 1104 Views
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