It's tricky, because so many Gays embrace their... uh, Gay-ness, if you will, as a large part of their identity. For better or worse, they're promoting that difference and making it a prominent part of who they are. I realize some of this is in defiance of the norm, but it still goes to show that part of the "difference" is self-imposed.
Well they have a disagreement with you on the nature of sin. Gays are either A) Not Christian or B) Christian. They group of gays that fall under the part B) Christian have a fundamental disagreement with you on the nature of sin. They believe that being gay is an inherent part of their being, it was the way that God made them, since God made them that way they should not struggle against their nature. Instead they should embrace their nature, embrace their humanity and their own dignity, and through that dignity find a way to establish a relationship with God, a divine being that is infinite. It is through their own humanity that they can learn how to establish a relationship with something beyond themselves.
Many theologians argue that this is one reason that God made himself both man and God with his son Jesus Christ. It is through his son that we learn how to establish a relationship with the son and the father, it is through his son that we learn on the proper way to live.
I would agree, yet we draw contrasting views from this fact. As for those you mention, lots of people ignore scripture to make themselves feel better. It's no fun to feel guilty, so why not change one's view of the rules? Unlike Old Testament prohibitions that no longer apply, since we're not Israel living under a Theocracy, Homosexuality is mentioned as sin consistently in both the OT and NT.
Having a honest disagreement on how one views himself should not be a reason to devolve into an US vs Them arrangement. An honest disagreement on a world view doesn't even escalate to the area of "enemy" and yet Jesus said we should love our enemies. The world that Jesus lived in had hundreds of groups who had different world views of God, some were Roman, some were Jews, some were the other religions of the Mediterranean. Yet Jesus taught cooperation with all. His most potent parables were even about different branches of Judaism bickering over trivial details yet missing the bigger picture.
Jesus said we should love our enemies, but He also threw the money-changers out of the Temple when they corrupted it with shady dealings. He is not the pale, ever-gentle, castrated figure we see in the stained-glass windows of lifeless churches. He spoke the truth with abandon, and it got him killed. He also told the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more." He was forgiving, but never made excuses for sin.
Yes, He may have been harsh on the legalistic Scribes & Pharisees. They were very careful to live by the letter of the laws, while even making up plenty of their own. He called them "white-washed tombs," which is a pretty grim illustration. Jesus raised the spiritual standards even higher, however, by saying that a man lusting in his heart was already guilty of adultery.
If the Pharisees' rules were demanding, Jesus' standards were humanly impossible. That's why the law never saves anybody. Only through Christ's work on the cross are we free to be filled with the Holy Spirit and really live Christ's example. Anyway, I digress. Jesus was hard on sin, spoke the truth and got murdered for it. (His secret trial wasn't legal, etc.)
Yes we should do whatever we can to stop bullying. But the reasons of a higher rate of suicide with Gays are showing we obviously aren't doing enough. When a rate of something is over 100% compared to the general population than that shows either two things:
1) There is something fundamentally different about the two populations (this is possible)
2) That the environment treats the two populations differently (which is what I find far more likely based on my experiences).
1) There is something fundamentally different about the two populations (this is possible)
2) That the environment treats the two populations differently (which is what I find far more likely based on my experiences).
Again, it doesn't mean the bullying has anything to do with actual Christianity. Mean kids bully, and they don't tend to do it while pontificating on points of scripture. I'm sure some of what he says does happen, but his broad generalizations are not accurate.
The sword might be grateful to the forge fire, but never fond of it.
This message last edited by Zalis on 14/10/2010 at 03:53:50 PM
Love the Sinner
- 13/10/2010 04:07:28 PM
1130 Views
I have to think about that for a while.
- 13/10/2010 04:30:56 PM
664 Views
Suicide is significantly higher in young gay populations
- 13/10/2010 05:36:01 PM
603 Views
That is not what I think requires thought
- 13/10/2010 05:56:06 PM
603 Views
Nossy I ain't a mind reader, no matter how I try 
or how much I would do Jean Grey
- 13/10/2010 06:06:42 PM
736 Views
or how much I would do Jean Grey
- 13/10/2010 06:06:42 PM
736 Views
ok now show that it caused by what Christian beliefs *NM*
- 13/10/2010 06:50:32 PM
321 Views
I don't think it's the belief's themselves
- 14/10/2010 12:20:01 AM
650 Views
The churches who encourage people to bully gays should be condemned
- 14/10/2010 06:43:06 PM
638 Views
Ah, that Ghandi quote sure does get around. (which is funny, since he wasn't a Christian) 
- 13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM
719 Views
- 13/10/2010 05:07:42 PM
719 Views
I'm not sure that is true
- 13/10/2010 05:16:30 PM
615 Views
When's the last time you heard the quote attributed to anyone else?
- 13/10/2010 08:34:10 PM
586 Views
- 13/10/2010 08:34:10 PM
586 Views
That many people don't know the correct origin doesn't change it though
- 13/10/2010 09:31:13 PM
736 Views
I think you are missing his point
- 13/10/2010 05:45:45 PM
684 Views
Question (and this one actually is asking for information 
)...
- 13/10/2010 06:42:17 PM
523 Views
)...
- 13/10/2010 06:42:17 PM
523 Views
I have seen gays be bullied before
- 13/10/2010 07:02:35 PM
716 Views
You just didn't listen to a thing I said *NM*
- 13/10/2010 07:09:29 PM
280 Views
why do you believe that? Because I don't agree with what you said?
- 13/10/2010 07:30:27 PM
632 Views
I said you aren't listening to a thing I said, for you didn't respond to anything that I wrote
- 13/10/2010 07:52:50 PM
617 Views
you are not interested in talking to anyone who doesn't agree with you
- 13/10/2010 09:01:03 PM
608 Views
I think there's truth in this as well.
- 13/10/2010 07:55:00 PM
662 Views
churches tend to refelect society as much if not more then they influence it
- 14/10/2010 07:15:35 PM
630 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
- 13/10/2010 08:30:42 PM
693 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
- 13/10/2010 09:55:52 PM
698 Views
Re: I think you are missing his point
- 14/10/2010 03:49:14 PM
674 Views
Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level
- 14/10/2010 05:49:22 PM
715 Views
Re: Actually you can very much debate whether homosexuality is a sin on a textual level
- 14/10/2010 08:52:24 PM
731 Views
Do you know greek or hebrew?
- 14/10/2010 08:57:32 PM
585 Views
I know a few words here and there, but not really. Do you?
- 14/10/2010 10:46:36 PM
717 Views
There's a good case on both sides (try Strong's Concordance, if you haven't, btw. )
- 15/10/2010 05:09:21 AM
1126 Views
You're kind of sidestepping a large part of his point
- 13/10/2010 05:51:53 PM
730 Views
so should Christians abandon other religious conviction to stop bullying?
- 13/10/2010 07:39:54 PM
637 Views
Many good points there; I think I'll let you play Defender of the Faith for a bit.
- 14/10/2010 08:50:23 AM
729 Views
- 14/10/2010 08:50:23 AM
729 Views
I think he is jackass that does not believe other's can have apoint of view
- 13/10/2010 06:48:12 PM
623 Views
That's right, bullying would go away if we didn't have Christians to make moral judgements on things
- 13/10/2010 08:11:27 PM
713 Views
I mostly agree
- 13/10/2010 08:19:00 PM
787 Views
most of the bullies I remember from school were not known for their regular church attendance
- 14/10/2010 07:24:06 PM
594 Views
Let me see if I can understand where we agree, it is hard to do with all the Sarcasm 
- 13/10/2010 08:48:38 PM
661 Views
- 13/10/2010 08:48:38 PM
661 Views
Meh. He's not entirely incorrect. But not all Christians are anti-gay.
- 13/10/2010 08:43:04 PM
694 Views
It is better to be a Tolkein than a Token
- 13/10/2010 08:52:09 PM
648 Views
- 13/10/2010 08:52:09 PM
648 Views
If I were a Tolkien liberal Christian, wouldn't that make me an American Roman Catholic? 
*NM*
- 13/10/2010 09:18:57 PM
246 Views
*NM*
- 13/10/2010 09:18:57 PM
246 Views
Interesting
- 13/10/2010 08:56:46 PM
946 Views
His first three sentences were totally unecessary. The rest is conspiracy-laden nonsense.
- 14/10/2010 12:37:06 AM
716 Views
Re:
- 14/10/2010 03:06:36 AM
692 Views
I think Chora has dibs on that bumper sticker.
- 14/10/2010 09:35:02 AM
763 Views
Re:
- 14/10/2010 11:50:04 PM
704 Views
It's nothing at all like cultural relativism.
- 15/10/2010 01:16:10 AM
606 Views
I don't think there is any question...
- 14/10/2010 04:42:45 AM
667 Views
A lot of Christian doctrine states that people cannot know who is worthy of God and it's not up to
- 14/10/2010 05:41:19 AM
658 Views
I think he's reading a lot of things into that letter that aren't there.
- 14/10/2010 08:22:13 AM
614 Views