I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math.
Joel Send a noteboard - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM
But I think what this and personal experience shows me is that while people need to be free to choose whichever path they want the efforts to erase gender differences in society are mostly in doomed to fail. There more differences between boys and girls than the plumbing. Society needs to be just but you can't make it equal. Both genders have strengths and weaknesses. Most people are willing to admit that but claiming men are better than women at anything beyond opening jars makes you a sexist.
Men are probably better on average than women at math. That doesn’t mean you cannot have women engineers but it does mean you will probably have less and the difference is small enough that really good women engineers will be better then most male engineers. The ones that are should be paid better but less qualified ones should not be promoted to create a false balance.
If we want to create more equality in pay we can do it by increasing the pay for historically female jobs but if you take this survey at face value most women would prefer you simply pay their husband more and let them be less concerned with a career so they can focus on their real interest which is family.
Men are probably better on average than women at math. That doesn’t mean you cannot have women engineers but it does mean you will probably have less and the difference is small enough that really good women engineers will be better then most male engineers. The ones that are should be paid better but less qualified ones should not be promoted to create a false balance.
If we want to create more equality in pay we can do it by increasing the pay for historically female jobs but if you take this survey at face value most women would prefer you simply pay their husband more and let them be less concerned with a career so they can focus on their real interest which is family.
There are definite physiological differences that tend to make one sex better suited for certain tasks, but that doesn't mean there's inherent inequality, only differences. The example I usually cite is the one SilverWarder provided on upper/lower body strength: The physical changes that occur at puberty tend to result in men having more upper and less lower body strength than women. That means they aren't the same; it does NOT mean they aren't equal (though in practice the ablities of any two people are very unlikely to be exactly equal). For some reason lately I've been obligated to tell a lot of people to go read "A Wrinkle in Time".
If you want equality you pay people on the basis of their performance rather than on the historical gender association of their particular profession and (believe it or not) it's when we substitute things like race and sex for performance that I think we err.EDIT: To satisfy certain peoples prescriptivism....
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
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Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 12/01/2011 at 02:36:15 AM
Looks like the feminist movement wasn't as successful as it appears
- 11/01/2011 06:21:01 PM
2308 Views
I think you're extrapolating a bit too much
- 11/01/2011 06:45:38 PM
1368 Views
The aricle does mention that women feel pressured to work when they did not want to
- 11/01/2011 06:48:47 PM
1387 Views
I don't trust the figures.
- 11/01/2011 06:50:24 PM
1390 Views
One assumes the latter, to the extent that "same job with same experience" can be defined. *NM*
- 12/01/2011 07:10:13 PM
727 Views
While I don't 100% agree with the article, some feminists annoy me no end.
- 11/01/2011 06:47:03 PM
1428 Views
My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career
- 11/01/2011 06:52:11 PM
1384 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career
- 11/01/2011 09:35:43 PM
1366 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career
- 12/01/2011 01:36:14 AM
1379 Views
It's not just that choice though.
- 11/01/2011 07:12:48 PM
1458 Views
It feels more hypocritical coming from feminists than "traditionalists". *NM*
- 11/01/2011 07:17:24 PM
761 Views
For you maybe.
- 11/01/2011 07:27:52 PM
1378 Views
I agree. I would also like to add, if I may...
- 12/01/2011 01:27:59 AM
1395 Views
- 12/01/2011 01:27:59 AM
1395 Views
all 25 of them?
- 12/01/2011 05:14:56 AM
1341 Views
Pffft, look it up a bit. You might find info on the national propaganda radio (NPR) site.
- 12/01/2011 12:47:33 PM
1392 Views
- 12/01/2011 12:47:33 PM
1392 Views
It's a difficult dynamic even under the best of circumstances, when both partners have chosen it.
- 12/01/2011 02:25:20 PM
1245 Views
I have to admit that this bothers me.
- 11/01/2011 07:33:09 PM
1416 Views
I guess you think the same of me then.
- 11/01/2011 09:48:31 PM
1262 Views
- 11/01/2011 09:48:31 PM
1262 Views
Another one?
- 12/01/2011 06:01:43 AM
1303 Views
- 12/01/2011 06:01:43 AM
1303 Views
Re: Another one?
- 12/01/2011 12:33:58 PM
1327 Views
- 12/01/2011 12:33:58 PM
1327 Views
~never mind~ *NM* *NM*
- 12/01/2011 04:42:47 PM
869 Views
I'm going to answer you anyway.
- 12/01/2011 04:54:18 PM
1393 Views
- 12/01/2011 04:54:18 PM
1393 Views
not to mention
- 12/01/2011 05:11:42 PM
1355 Views
you don't want kids?
- 12/01/2011 05:46:25 PM
1271 Views
bleck
- 12/01/2011 11:14:25 PM
1295 Views
- 12/01/2011 11:14:25 PM
1295 Views
You don't have to be a doctor to contribute to the world
- 12/01/2011 05:27:26 PM
1351 Views
Poor Aeryn
- 12/01/2011 05:29:47 PM
1277 Views
I replied before she edited
- 12/01/2011 05:41:53 PM
1226 Views
The primary issue...
- 12/01/2011 05:52:42 PM
1264 Views
Agreed; ironically, that first line applies to this thread and mine with the parenting article.
- 13/01/2011 10:00:28 PM
1415 Views
It has been a long, long time since I have seen a woman getting looked down on for staying at home.
- 12/01/2011 01:48:42 AM
1207 Views
My commentary on the whys and wherefores of this stuff would be way too politically incorrect
- 11/01/2011 07:56:24 PM
1432 Views
I think all of that makes sense
- 11/01/2011 08:36:39 PM
1315 Views
I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math.
- 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM
1232 Views
men have more physical strength period
- 12/01/2011 05:30:14 AM
1260 Views
There's a lot more to running (especially marathons) then leg strength.
- 12/01/2011 05:41:11 AM
1288 Views
how much time the experts spend being wrong doesn't make them less wrong
- 12/01/2011 03:16:10 PM
1230 Views
How much more time they've spent studying it before drawing conclusions makes a big difference.
- 12/01/2011 05:42:26 PM
1252 Views
your right it is just a coincidence that their results always matches their politics
- 12/01/2011 05:56:03 PM
1302 Views
There's definitely such a thing as a self fulfilling prophecy.
- 12/01/2011 07:00:23 PM
1257 Views
so you would trust them if they only admitted conseratives?
- 12/01/2011 09:51:00 PM
1282 Views
Admitted? No, but they'll take anyone with the grades.
- 13/01/2011 09:47:42 PM
1279 Views
Every study I have seen shows most schools have few to no non-leberal proffesors
- 13/01/2011 10:07:08 PM
1217 Views
Every study I've ever seen shows that math and science fields have few to no women.
- 13/01/2011 10:42:46 PM
1310 Views
not when we know men are better at math thewpmen are
- 13/01/2011 11:10:18 PM
1379 Views
- 13/01/2011 11:10:18 PM
1379 Views
Sigh... we know no such thing, and even if we did, it would be those biased liberals telling us.
- 13/01/2011 11:30:33 PM
1187 Views
When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math
- 12/01/2011 03:47:53 PM
1309 Views
Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former.
- 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM
1183 Views
I'm trying to understand your position
- 12/01/2011 05:28:43 PM
1262 Views
Now you've got it.
- 12/01/2011 06:40:50 PM
1350 Views
we know the brain of women works differently then the brains of men
- 12/01/2011 05:40:15 PM
1307 Views
What evidence I'm aware of seems inconclusive.
- 12/01/2011 06:46:50 PM
1144 Views
There are theories but of course they are unprovable
- 12/01/2011 10:50:08 PM
1251 Views
That's a logical rationale, and might even be accurate, but in this case I want hard evidence.
- 13/01/2011 09:03:32 PM
1187 Views
I think if you look you find you believe all sorts of things that can't be proven
- 13/01/2011 10:03:54 PM
1267 Views
here is some evdience to argue that it is not society but biology
- 13/01/2011 08:43:43 PM
1297 Views
I think you did like I always do and forgot to give us a way to click your link.
- 13/01/2011 09:56:52 PM
1306 Views
- 13/01/2011 09:56:52 PM
1306 Views
oops
- 13/01/2011 10:07:55 PM
1311 Views
Seems like that's an argument for both views, in a way.
- 13/01/2011 11:14:11 PM
1203 Views
You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough
- 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM
1472 Views
I would also like to say this:
- 11/01/2011 09:33:23 PM
1270 Views
Of course
- 12/01/2011 01:47:14 AM
1306 Views
"Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience.
- 12/01/2011 07:58:12 PM
1311 Views
Re: "Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience.
- 12/01/2011 08:15:59 PM
1310 Views
I'm glad YOU think it's fun...
- 13/01/2011 10:05:07 PM
1278 Views
I seem to remember reading about genders in Norwegian once, but I forget now...
- 13/01/2011 10:11:24 PM
1309 Views
Re: I would also like to say this:
- 12/01/2011 09:15:28 AM
1314 Views
Re: I would also like to say this:
- 12/01/2011 12:27:14 PM
1294 Views
No
- 12/01/2011 12:28:48 PM
1194 Views
Re: No
- 12/01/2011 12:35:56 PM
1166 Views
Re: No
- 12/01/2011 12:37:33 PM
1280 Views
Re: No
- 12/01/2011 12:43:36 PM
1285 Views
Re: No
- 12/01/2011 12:47:56 PM
1316 Views
Since this has become too complicated
- 12/01/2011 12:54:54 PM
1314 Views
The two are used as different psychological concepts.
- 12/01/2011 02:24:58 PM
1260 Views
Have you left a memo at the Feminist Movement's Office?
- 12/01/2011 12:46:45 AM
1320 Views
what the point? Like good liberals they only believe science that agrees with them
*NM*
- 12/01/2011 05:31:09 AM
653 Views
*NM*
- 12/01/2011 05:31:09 AM
653 Views
Actually, the feminist movement was completely successful.
- 12/01/2011 01:42:44 AM
1307 Views
I was playing a bit but I agree that the feminist in the past accomplished a lot
- 12/01/2011 05:34:04 AM
1301 Views
NOW is just a left-leaning PAC.
- 12/01/2011 03:16:52 PM
1272 Views
I would argue the women's movement and the feminist movement are not the same thing
- 12/01/2011 03:53:19 PM
1259 Views
Mmm. I don't think you understand the feminist movement. You have been reading to many things
- 12/01/2011 01:56:20 AM
1306 Views
I was refering to groups like NOW
- 12/01/2011 05:40:46 AM
1258 Views
Gosh, look what you started.
- 12/01/2011 03:00:23 PM
1286 Views
- 12/01/2011 03:00:23 PM
1286 Views
somebody need to start something it is pretty dead around here *NM*
- 12/01/2011 03:16:54 PM
741 Views
I agree that it would be awesome to hang with my kid every day and not have to work.
- 12/01/2011 11:33:25 PM
1324 Views
that part would be great
- 12/01/2011 11:40:49 PM
1280 Views
I could do it every day.
- 13/01/2011 12:52:56 AM
1210 Views
So here's the question. Why don't men have a "choice" to opt-out?
- 15/01/2011 06:13:28 AM
1298 Views
This sounds awful to me.
- 13/01/2011 04:27:08 AM
1283 Views
- 13/01/2011 04:27:08 AM
1283 Views
I should have twigged on to that sooner. I would have if I had read more posts before answering.
- 13/01/2011 02:50:20 AM
1279 Views

*NM*