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I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel Send a noteboard - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM
Most of the Holy Grails in particle physics do at least allow proof of their existence, however; most definitions I've seen for dark matter and dark energy (which mainly seems an explanation for dark matter not covering all the bases either) seem to make them unverifiable by definition (if not as badly as my favorite such example: Branes).

Most definitions for dark matter and dark energy do not make them unverifiable by definition. If that were the case, there wouldn't be over a dozen experiments trying to detect dark matter. I'm not sure why you think otherwise, but a statement like the one you made, offered with no support, lacks credibility.

The more exotic a position is and the less direct evidence it has the more skeptical I am, but as it becomes more familiar, particular if that's due to mounting evidence, my skepticism proportionately decreases. If dark matter is "simply" matter affected by gravity as well as the weak and strong nuclear forces but not electromagnetism that's not so controversial since, as you note, neutrinos are already known to do that, and black holes effectively ignore everything but gravity as well. The idea of some radically new kind of matter bound by few if any of the known rules apply (which is the impression I, rightly or wrongly, often get in discussions of dark matter) is more of a hard sell for me.
Also, dark matter and dark energy deal with completely different phenomena and evidence. Dark energy has to do with the accelerating expansion of the universe, and as the video describes, we know less about it than we do about dark matter. This is because the observations that indicate its presence are much newer.

Not ENTIRELY different; they're both cosmological issues. Large undetected mass might explain apparent acceleration in much the way it's thought to explain the Bullet Cluster--but doesn't. Dark energy doesn't seem to have much definition beyond being a placeholder for the actual explanation, and the characteristics required of it to provide that explanation. While I certainly support hypothesizing I also think it important to guard against fitting data to the curve rather than the reverse. Again, I don't claim to be an expert on cosmology or particle physics, but the little my amateur interest has shown me suggests that may be more common than anyone would like to admit.
A modification of an existing theory. Maybe I'm being a little semantic here, but it doesn't seem like a revision on the order of what Relativity did to Classical Mechanics. Most of my objection really boils down to giving it that kind of gravitas; there's no reason all or even most normal matter must reflect or emit energy visible from Earth, and good reason to think most of it doesn't. If by dark matter and dark energy we simply mean normal matter and energy we can't observe or haven't, sure, I'm on board with that, but if we're talking about some exotic and unprecedented form of matter or energy I'm not convinced of the need or evidence.

Have you done extensive research into the actual state of the field and the various forms that the evidence takes? If not, that sounds like a problem with you, not a problem with the evidence.

Maybe so; the research I've done isn't extensive, no.
It probably wouldn't be, and given a choice I'd prefer dark matter, but positing it as matter we can't see because it's too far away from us and/or any energy source makes a lot more sense to me than positing it as matter that literally cannot be seen, by us or anyone.

Some particles do not interact electromagnetically, which means those particles can't be "seen." We already have examples of such particles: neutrinos. Positing more such particles, given the actual state of the evidence (not just your (lack of) understanding of it), seems well-justified. No one has concluded yet that any specific such particle actually exists, because we haven't had direct detections. I'm not sure why you're so against physicists doing research in the most likely avenues. Do you think that you understand the field better than people who have spent decades studying it?

Sometimes it feels like physics and the profession of physics are two different things, or at least only somewhat related. For example, the flip side of what you just said is that if neutrinos are dark matter then dark matter hasn't been a new concept needing evidence amounting to proof since the first neutrino was detected. Of course, looking for more relatives of the neutrino isn't quite as sexy (and grantworthy) as looking for mysterious theoretical dark matter that literally changes the whole universe. Doesn't encourage international treaties and funding for supercolliders, y'know?

If the evidence is there, fine, and yes, we should look for it if the best theories say it's likely to be there. But the reference to particle physics set off the same alarm bells for me that the history of theoretical particle physics has: I'm not interested in finding new (and expensive and time consuming) ways to search for evidence of something simply because the old ways didn't find any. Sometimes when you dig for gold and don't find any it doesn't mean you should dig deeper, it means you should dig elsewhere, and the fact proving an unconventional theory is a great way to get your name in the history books is just one more reason to be skeptical of those making the attempt. Everyone wants to win a Nobel Prize like UTs Stephen Weinberg but no one wants to win an Ig Nobel Prize like John Bockris down the road at Texas A&M.
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Exciting video about the universe - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1042 Views
Cool, and true *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 311 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 778 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 707 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 641 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 746 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 707 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 579 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 616 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 714 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 790 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 627 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 573 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 665 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 587 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 662 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 607 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 813 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 624 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 693 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 633 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 723 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 731 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 729 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 945 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 651 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 619 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 746 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 577 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1089 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 620 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 810 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 732 Views

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