Active Users:210 Time:30/04/2024 08:01:52 AM
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel Send a noteboard - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM
I'm not convinced of that, though it's quite possible that's just because I'm not well enough informed about the subject.

In a situation where one is not well informed about a subject, the responsible action is to become informed before shouting a dissenting opinion from the rooftops. That means doing research on the topic with a willingness to change one's mind if proven wrong, rather than simply ignoring anything that doesn't fit one's preconceived notions. It's the difference between being rational, and rationalizing.

Well, I'm not COMPLETELY ignorant, but not knowledgeable enough to make emphatic declarations, so I see your point.
Large undetected masses wouldn't explain truly accelerated expansion, but could easily explain APPARENT acceleration (which is why I attached that all important qualifier). Large, distant and undetected masses exerting increasingly strong gravitation on intervening objects could easily make it appear the rate of expansion was increasing, particularly if the amount of such large undetected masses was, say, five times greater than that of observed matter. Even exotic dark matter operating in that way is less radical than dark energy, and it's not fair to suggest dark energy is coëval with the cosmological constant, that the former is a perfectly natural and inevitable consequence of the latter. Dark energy is no more a slight modification of the well established cosmological constant than exotic dark matter is a slight modification of well established normal matter.

The detection of the accelerating expansion of the universe was made using distant galactic superclusters; the explanation you suggest simply doesn't fit the scope of the evidence. One of my professors was a graduate student in one of the groups which first discovered that phenomenon, and I recently had the chance to speak with the group's principal investigator, Dr. Saul Perlmutter, in person. I can confirm that they spent a huge amount of effort in both data acquisition and analysis (this was done over the course of years), and their results have been confirmed in a variety of ways since then.

With so much matter unaccounted for, how is it certain a more distant gravity source isn't pulling the superclusters (and everything else)? I'm not saying that's the case, I'm just curious how we can KNOW that's not the case.
Dark energy may very well be a direct consequence of the cosmological constant, although that isn't known for certain yet. A positive value for the cosmological constant produces exactly the effects we see, but the question then becomes why the constant has the necessary value. (Note also that we have known about the cosmological constant in principle since Einstein first developed his field equations, so this would be in fact a case of reusing an existing explanation, albeit slightly modified from Einstein's original and flawed use of the constant.)

Yeah, but I'm a lot more comfortable with that. We know no theory perfectly explains all the evidence, so there's a known but undefined amount of inaccuracy in every theory. Reducing that inaccuracy through observation, hypothesis and experimentation is what I hope is occurring, up to and including completely abandoning any theory with as much or more evidence against it as for it. Maybe I am just giving into the sensationalism again, but it seems like dark energy is more than just a wrinkle of the cosmological constant. That's not necessarily a bad thing; if it becomes a complete revision justified by the evidence then I have no complaint with it--provided it IS justified by the evidence, not just a desire to replace an existing theory.
Yes, but the distinction is that a single new particle will almost by definition have some unique properties (if a neutron had a positive charge equal to the proton, would it be a "neutron", or just a "heavy proton"?) It does not follow from the existence of one such particle that there is a whole family of particles with all or most of the same properties comprising entire systems or galaxies representing 80% of matter in the universe. That's a BIG leap from the existence of neutrinos, which probably has something to do with why neutrinos aren't cited as proof of exotic dark matter, nor the leading cause for believing it exists on astronomic scales.

I still don't understand the distinction you previously made. Also, the question you asked about neutrons and protons doesn't make sense, because they're not fundamental particles. Their electric charges or lack thereof occur due to the combinations of specific sets of valence quarks.

The distinction was that we'd expect a unique fundamental particle to have unique properties, but positing multiple particles with most or all of the same properties would make the properties no longer unique. That's what I meant by comparing them to neutrons and protons: They were recognized as different particles due to different properties; had they possessed all or most of the same properties with slightly different masses they would not have been considered different particles (and, in the sense of both being baryons, no longer are) but variations of a single particle. The notion of multiple fundamental particles with only a few slight but critical variations reminds me of how we were tipped to the existence of quarks in the first place.
Two and a half, but who's counting? ;) I fully support experimentation and observation to TEST unproven theories, but not with the overt goal of PROVING them. Once upon a time (and since neutrinos were detected) many fundamental particles were thought to exist, yet ultimately proven mere composites, to say nothing of theoretical particles that have been as conclusively DISPROVEN as anything can be.

I don't know what has led you to this impression that you personally need to police the goals of every scientist doing research, but you should take another look at whatever it was. The evidence will show what it shows, regardless of the scientists' goals. If one scientist tries to push an explanation that isn't well-supported, there will be five more ready to take him down. This is how things have worked, and they have worked indeed, for at least the past two hundred years.

I find your surplus of faith disturbing. ;) Professional communities, the scientific among them, can and have made mistakes, sometimes big ones. I'm confident any such error will be caught eventually, but can't help remembering that "eventually" is the word Wikipedia uses to describe how other scientists ultimately vindicated Vera Rubins findings on gravitational rotation, which it also says were met with skepticism until then. Institutional errors happen, and thus no discipline is infallible collectively or individually. EVENTUALLY quarks were hypothesized (and also met a fair amount of skepticism) and eventually they were found, but prior to the former particle physics went through a period where list of new "fundamental" particles never stopped growing. Not centuries ago, but about fifty years ago. Certainty that "science marches on" and never needs to retrace its steps except briefly is, once again, less than reassuring since it's reminiscent of the same certainty that has led down many blind alleys.
It's also a huge story of going from prediction to rejection, and I think it's very important to keep that in mind. Failure can and ideally should be as instructive as success; that's why earth, air, fire and water are no longer considered the four fundamental particles of a geocentric universe. I'm a lot less worried about the LHC spawning a planet swallowing black hole than the attitude I often sense amounting to "The great thing about the HLC is that it will answer the most important question of the day: How big must a collider be to find the Higgs boson?" If it doesn't exist the answer is "pretty freaking big.... "

As a physicist who works on the LHC, I can tell you definitively that such an attitude is hardly present, let alone prevalent, among the scientists and engineers on the project. This is, as I've mentioned several times, a case in which you're confusing the portrayal by popular media with what the professionals are actually doing and thinking.

If that's what you've observed I'm in no position to dispute it.
Sure, but if you don't find it after that second mile you shouldn't conclude "our theory was wrong--it's actually THREE miles down. *dig, dig, dig*"

The point is that dark matter detection experiments are just barely getting to the first mile, which is something you would realize if you took the time to educate yourself about the topic.

OK, I'll wait and see. I still can't help thinking about the proton decay GUTs predict. Perfect Symmetry contained the statement that "we know in our bones" protons have a half-life>10^30 years because our bodies own radioactivity would kill us if they didn't. Neutrino detectors had recently established their half-life had to be>10^31 years because we hadn't seen any decay, so the GUT creators revised their theories to more complicated particles that only required a half-life of 10^32 years. Then bigger detectors ruled that out; more revision, more complexity, more observation. Recently crusing through Wikipedia I saw that the minimum estimate is up around 10^34 years and there's a real prospect we'll NEVER be able to build a detector large enough to reproducably observe proton decay, and still the revision and increased complexity continues. The possibility the theory might just be WRONG doesn't seem to have ever been on the table; there's too much fame to be had from achieving what Einstein attempted and failed.

But, OK, I know I'm out of my depth. I'll see what happens and hope that if any observer bias exists it's corrected sooner rather than later.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Exciting video about the universe - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1042 Views
Cool, and true *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 311 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 778 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 708 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 641 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 747 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 707 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 580 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 616 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 714 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 790 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 627 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 573 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 666 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 587 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 663 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 607 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 813 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 624 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 693 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 634 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 724 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 732 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 729 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 945 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 651 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 619 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 746 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 578 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1089 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 620 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 811 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 732 Views

Reply to Message