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Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel Send a noteboard - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM
Perhaps I misunderstood then. I thought the proposal was that the Bullet Clusters dark matter passed through the other cluster without collision and was thus farther to the other side of it than the Bullet Clusters other matter, but that the x-ray emitting gases did collide because they were normal matter subject to electromagnetism (as evidenced by the fact they're emitting x-rays). The x-ray emitting gases were significant, as I understood it, because the gravitational lensing associated with the Bullet Cluster is NOT strongest where they are (despite the fact they appear to be the largest concentration of normal matter).

Yes, that's the explanation of the evidence. I'm not sure what that has do to with the objection you made.

I took him to be saying that the X-ray emitting gases were also further out because gravitationally attracted by the dark matter, but on re-reading his article it appears he did NOT say that, so I withdraw that objection. There's no reason to think the collision didn't occur (and every reason to think it did), but whether it did is not relevant to his position.
Singly or in combination; both seem possible, meaning there are no less than three potential alternatives that don't require positing neutrinos are just one tiny part of a whole new class of matter.

They seem possible because you have an overly-limited view of the evidence.

Perhaps so, but the evidence for any one explanation (or group of explanations) still seems inconclusive.
Also, neutrinos and whatever new particle(s) are found would not necessarily be in the same "class." They would be similar in that they wouldn't interact electromagnetically, but neutrinos are not the only particle for which that is true: see gluons, Z bosons. For that matter, there are also photons, which are carriers for the electromagnetic force; they mediate EM interactions, but do not have such interactions themselves, as they don't have any electric charge.

An analogy to other types of known normal matter doesn't really help the cause of exotic dark matter. You're essentially listing other explanations for missing mass that require no exotic dark matter.
The second sentence is the reason for the perception in the first. For my part, I don't think anyone overeager to tell a story unsupported by the evidence, but think many overeager to tell a story that allows few if any tests but radically alters the scientific landscape, in the hopes tests will subsequently become possible and supporting evidence found. The problem with that is it encourages the idea that when such a test is found but the evidence is not the problem must be the test rather than the theory. I mentioned James Bockris down below; it was only when I looked up his name to cite for Texas A&Ms role in the cold fusion hoax that I found he's since claimed to be transmuting elements, but whether it's the Philosophers Stone or cold fusion, if you keep looking and looking for something of which you find not even a hint, rather than not looking hard enough, the reason may be that it's simply not there.

But, in the case you describe, there would be other scientists just as eager to change the landscape in a different direction, by proving the first group wrong.

Ultimately, yes, and if dark matter and/or dark energy are invalid concepts then those ardently contending they're the only possible explanations and pursuing proof of same today will be much chagrined by tomorrows scientists exposing their errors. If that's how things develop, however, I'd prefer the process take decades rather than centuries, and the more inertia an erroneous theory has within the community the more evidence it will take to overcome it.
We have more than just hints that dark matter exists and is exotic. We know from the current evidence that direct detection of it will be hard to do, so the fact that we haven't seen any results yet isn't inconsistent or a warning sign. If we thought it was going to be easy and then didn't come up with anything, that would be a different story.

That's fair enough, provided we don't inadvertently allow it become an excuse for never finding direct evidence. Otherwise there's no difference between dismissing the lack of direct evidence for dark matter and dismissing the lack of direct evidence for MACHOs; it's just a question of which theory unsupported by direct evidence one prefers.
I haven't taken any classes on those specific subjects rather than general physics, no, and acknowledge the large possibility I'm simply not well enough informed to know all the ways my objections have been addressed. However, my concern is that a lot of people who should know better are too invested in dark matter to look for explanations, in the abstract, rather than simply proof of the dark matter they KNOW is there. They have a word for that, but it isn't "science".

But this concern is based on an incomplete understanding of the evidence (and what still sound a lot like impressions derived from news media sensationalism to me). The idea that some scientists get "too invested" may certainly be true in general, but that is not a valid reason to aspersions on the entire enterprise, because there are always going to be other scientists going in other directions, and in this specific case, the evidence simply isn't nearly as flimsy as you think it is.

I don't think it's flimsy, as such, but I do think it inconclusive.

Theoretical estimates of normal dark matter could be off.

Less of it could lie in the immediate vicinity of lensed objects but more along the complete path between us and them.

The image itself could be distorted if the lensing mass is so close it strongly affects parts of the background but others little or none.

Those are just the most obvious solutions occurring to one layman, acknowleding that all may be untenable. Regardless, the basic principle that experiments and observation should seek new theories and test existing ones rather than simply to prove existing ones remains valid. An anomaly alerted us to a problem, but just because a solution that may be tenable was found doesn't mean we should just set out to prove that solution and cease bothering to look for one that fits the evidence better, particularly if one exists that both fits the evidence better AND is simpler.
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Exciting video about the universe - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1042 Views
Cool, and true *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 311 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 777 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 707 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 641 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 746 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 707 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 579 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 616 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 714 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 789 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 627 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 572 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 665 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 587 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 662 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 606 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 812 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 624 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 692 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 633 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 723 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 731 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 729 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 945 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 650 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 618 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 745 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 577 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1089 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 619 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 810 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 732 Views

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