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Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM
The more exotic a position is and the less direct evidence it has the more skeptical I am, but as it becomes more familiar, particular if that's due to mounting evidence, my skepticism proportionately decreases. If dark matter is "simply" matter affected by gravity as well as the weak and strong nuclear forces but not electromagnetism that's not so controversial since, as you note, neutrinos are already known to do that, and black holes effectively ignore everything but gravity as well. The idea of some radically new kind of matter bound by few if any of the known rules apply (which is the impression I, rightly or wrongly, often get in discussions of dark matter) is more of a hard sell for me.


Neutrinos don't interact via the strong force, actually.

Most proposals for new dark matter particles extend the Standard Model in one way or another, rather than simply ignoring it. The fact is that no particle we understand today has the necessary properties to produce the evidence that we have. Skepticism about any specific proposed particle is still valid, because there haven't been direct detections yet, but skepticism about the necessity of some new particle is no longer warranted.

Not ENTIRELY different; they're both cosmological issues. Large undetected mass might explain apparent acceleration in much the way it's thought to explain the Bullet Cluster--but doesn't. Dark energy doesn't seem to have much definition beyond being a placeholder for the actual explanation, and the characteristics required of it to provide that explanation. While I certainly support hypothesizing I also think it important to guard against fitting data to the curve rather than the reverse. Again, I don't claim to be an expert on cosmology or particle physics, but the little my amateur interest has shown me suggests that may be more common than anyone would like to admit.


No, large undetected mass would not explain acceleration, because the gravitation of matter is attractive. Dark energy causes a repulsive gravity-like force, which leads to acceleration. At this point, the leading idea is that dark energy is due to the cosmological constant, a perfectly allowed term in Einstein's field equations. The main question is why the cosmological constant has the value that we measure experimentally.

Sometimes it feels like physics and the profession of physics are two different things, or at least only somewhat related. For example, the flip side of what you just said is that if neutrinos are dark matter then dark matter hasn't been a new concept needing evidence amounting to proof since the first neutrino was detected. Of course, looking for more relatives of the neutrino isn't quite as sexy (and grantworthy) as looking for mysterious theoretical dark matter that literally changes the whole universe. Doesn't encourage international treaties and funding for supercolliders, y'know?


Neutrinos are dark matter, but that doesn't mean that they come anywhere close to accounting for all of the dark matter that we observe. I don't understand this distinction you make between "relatives of the neutrino" and "mysterious theoretical dark matter." A new particle is a new particle.

Also, you might note the history of neutrinos themselves: the neutrino was first posited to explain particle decays which seemed to be missing some energy in the decay products. It wasn't detected directly until a decade afterward. Sounds like a familiar scenario, doesn't it?

If the evidence is there, fine, and yes, we should look for it if the best theories say it's likely to be there. But the reference to particle physics set off the same alarm bells for me that the history of theoretical particle physics has: I'm not interested in finding new (and expensive and time consuming) ways to search for evidence of something simply because the old ways didn't find any. Sometimes when you dig for gold and don't find any it doesn't mean you should dig deeper, it means you should dig elsewhere, and the fact proving an unconventional theory is a great way to get your name in the history books is just one more reason to be skeptical of those making the attempt. Everyone wants to win a Nobel Prize like UTs Stephen Weinberg but no one wants to win an Ig Nobel Prize like John Bockris down the road at Texas A&M.


Why exactly do references to particle physics set off alarm bells for you? Particle physics is a huge success story of going from prediction to detection; it happens over and over again in the history of the field.

If your prediction is that the gold is two miles underground, and you don't see any after digging only one mile down, that's no reason to give up. You knew that you probably wouldn't see any after only a mile, but you still had to dig that first mile in order to be able to dig the second mile.
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Exciting video about the universe - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1042 Views
Cool, and true *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 311 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 778 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 708 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 641 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 747 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 707 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 580 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 616 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 714 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 790 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 627 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 573 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 666 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 587 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 663 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 607 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 813 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 624 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 693 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 633 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 724 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 732 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 729 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 945 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 651 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 619 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 746 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 578 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1089 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 620 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 810 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 732 Views

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