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Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel Send a noteboard - 19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM
Not a complete lack, but nothing like a professionals, no. A lot of it's outdated, too; a part of me died when I found out quasars are no longer considered possible white holes. :( I know fusion isn't restricted to hydrogen (else helium would be the heaviest element), but fuzing say, transuranides, seems energy prohibitive. I'm curious how cosmic background radiation has ruled out the possibility of heavy nuclei pockets surrounding galaxies; I'd have thought scattering over such a great distance would make detection of all but the most massive quantity of super heavy nuclei impossible, but presumably that's not the basis on which the exclusion was made.

Measurements of the cosmic microwave background constrain how much normal (baryonic) matter there is in the universe. We can see much of that matter in the form of light elements in stars, and we can make further observations to estimate the amounts of heavier elements that have been produced. The numbers just don't work out.

OK, I can accept that. It doesn't really rule out the possibility of huge masses of low density hydrogen, or low temperature hydrogen stars with something blocking our line of sight, but the former seems very problematic and the latter has the same old verification problems, so good enough.
That last statement doesn't follow from the others. Far away lensing is consistent with exotic dark matter, but no less consistent with MACHOs; MACHOs were ruled out because no nearby gravitational lensing was observed and galactic rotation says dark matter is uniformly distributed within galaxies. That works if there's enough dark matter to significantly affect galactic rotation but not enough to create nearby gravitational lensing, but those two propositions tend to be contradictory unless there's a BIG difference between the amount of dark matter necessary for the former and the latter. If that's the case I have no objection, I just want to be sure that's what you're saying.

Far away lensing is not consistent with MACHOs. Go read Sean Carroll's blog post a few more times.

OK, read it again; he doesn't seem to address MACHOs directly, if at all. The closest he comes seems to be referencing the "the large majority (about 90%) of ordinary matter in a cluster... not in the galaxies themselves, but in hot X-ray emitting intergalactic gas". It's an interesting statement, because he's basically saying that 90% of the matter in the galaxies isn't really "in" them at all, but around them, which, whether we can (normally) see it or not, is exactly what MACHO theories claim; however unlikely the large masses of low density hydrogen I referenced above are, they appear to be real. That doesn't account for the greater gravitational lensing observed beyond the gases in the pictures, but an intervening highly MACHO(s) might.
Lensing happens when there's a concentrated source of matter between the observer and the object; for dark matter that's distributed fairly homogeneously within the galaxy, that's very unlikely to happen. When we look at lensing from entire clusters of far-away galaxies, we get results that match exotic matter expectations, but not ordinary matter expectations.

In other words,
there's enough dark matter to significantly affect galactic rotation but not enough to create nearby gravitational lensing,
and those propositions aren't contradictory because
there's a BIG difference between the amount of dark matter necessary for the former and the latter.
Again, if that's what the evidence and you are saying, fine, but the blog post about the Bullet Cluster does not, in itself, rule out MACHOs; the cluster only rules out MACHOs on the basis that theories about them say they should be homogeneous. Heterogeneous MACHOs could explain the Bullet Cluster, too, but if that's inherently contradictory I don't object to ruling out MACHOs.

What really gives me pause though is statements like the articles first paragraph
Dark Matter Exists

by Sean
The great accomplishment of late-twentieth-century cosmology was putting together a complete inventory of the universe. We can tell a story that fits all the known data, in which ordinary matter (every particle ever detected in any experiment) constitutes only about 5% of the energy of the universe, with 25% being dark matter and 70% being dark energy. The challenge for early-twenty-first-century cosmology will actually be to understand the nature of these mysterious dark components....

Above emphases mine. Does that last sentence sound at all familiar? Maybe like the notion a century ago that all of physics had been mapped out and nothing remained except to fill in the details, the idea so often ridiculed and that "simply doesn't occur as often" now? Is Dr. Carroll one of those oversensationalizing undereducated media hacks you mentioned? If so, should I recognize the sweeping statements with which he leads off his article as authoritative? Or do statements like those and his later one that "We would all love to out-Einstein Einstein" underscore my valid concerns?
Hopefully not, but that demonstrates that my concern that kind of thinking didn't end in the 1600s is valid. I don't doubt it's less likely, and significantly, but it's far from impossible, particularly if we allow ourselves the luxury of thinking it impossible; that's actually an EXAMPLE of the kind of erroneous and overconfident thinking that worries me, and further demonstrates it can still occur, because it manifestly has.

You're conflating "simply doesn't occur as often" with "impossible." I did not use the latter term.

Largely covered just now.
It could also be a form of normal matter acting in ways existing theory didn't anticipate, which is not so far fetched since existing theories obviously failed to anticipate SOMETHING or we wouldn't be seeking a way to reconcile them with recent anomalous observations. You've convinced me exotic dark matter is the best candidate, but I'd still like to be certain it's not prematurely designated the ONLY candidate.

That suggestion seems to boil down to MOND or something similar, and as many sources will describe for you, such modified theories do not work well.
Evidently that's Dr. Carrolls conclusion as well; "once you have eliminated MOND, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". That's rather proscribed thinking, Holmes. ;)
Exotic dark matter is the most likely candidate. My statements have all been, explicitly or implicitly, in terms of probabilities which are based on evidence and will be updated when more evidence is available. This is the correct way to reason about empirical issues. Your qualitative, rhetorical style is causing you to blow things out of proportion.

This is a qualitative question, or should be; we're debating whether something exists, not the frequency of its occurrence. If you want to put that in quantitative terms that exotic dark matter is 99% likely, OK, but a lot of your statements (and almost all of Dr. Carrolls) aren't just quantitative, there without qualifiers. If you don't want me objecting that you're being too definitive where too much remains undefined, be less definitive.
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This message last edited by Joel on 24/05/2011 at 11:42:11 PM
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Exciting video about the universe - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1041 Views
Cool, and true *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 310 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 777 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 707 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 641 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 746 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 707 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 579 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 615 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 714 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 789 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 627 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 572 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 665 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 586 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 662 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 606 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 812 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 623 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 692 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 633 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 723 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 731 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 728 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM 686 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM 860 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM 622 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 14/05/2011 05:35:56 AM 903 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 17/05/2011 02:09:55 AM 531 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM 863 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 943 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 650 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 618 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 745 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 577 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1088 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 619 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 810 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 731 Views

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