Active Users:415 Time:28/11/2025 07:36:19 PM
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible. Joel Send a noteboard - 12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
"It is better to marry than burn" is hardly a seal of approval.

For that matter, why are we letting women in the priesthood? We don't know if that's okay either. I mean, sure, we know they can be Christians, but are we sure it's okay for them to LEAD Christians? I personally am not convinced either way, and since I have trouble dealing with change I don't think anybody anywhere should take chances. Risk is just so un-Christian.


tl;dr Aren't you glad you're not a Presbyterian.

Both in the Old and New Testaments, so Pauls particular hang ups don't bother me much, particularly given that he expressly says more than once in the NT that an opinion he's giving is just that: His opinion. That's a far cry from the consistent position throughout the text and Church history down to, what, like 10-20 years ago? forbidding practicing homosexuality. As for marriage in general, Levites were married, and saying bishops must be "the husband of only one wife" seems to make it pretty clear that they can marry at least once, even if it's open to debate whether that forbids them plural marriage, divorce and/or remarriage after their first wifes death. There's not even a scriptural suggestion priests can't marry. I've never been really clear where the prohibition came from in the Roman Catholic Church.

The cases you cite aren't nearly as ambiguous (and from the perspective of scripture, Church Fathers and historical Church practice "amibiguous" is generous when applied to practicing homosexuality). It's not a matter of simply saying "risk is un-Christian", it's a matter of a great weight of evidence arguing against the acceptable of practicing homosexuality vs. many scriptural arguments against it subjected to VERY novel and unprecedented interpretations, almost exclusively by people with a vested interest in the outcome. Generally speaking risk is fine, but when the risk offending God it's best avoided, and if a Church leader does something universally regarded as offensive to God until the last few decades s/he better have pretty solid evidence that the recent decades political decisions are more than that, and actually reflect Gods will.

TL;DR version: There are ample Old and New Testament precedents for both women Church leaders and married priests; there are none for practicing homosexual priests, and a great deal of evidence to the contrary, both of which have been reflected in Church writings and practices since. Even "it is better to marry than to burn" doesn't qualify because any homosexual couple seeking a Church marriage would've been dismissed out of hand in Moses' day, in Davids, in Pauls, in Augustines, in Aquinas' and even in C.S. Lewis'. I'm sure it would be very convenient for all of us to alter Gods will when it suits us, but that's not what Christ did in Gethsemane, is it? Whom is the Head of the Body of Christ?
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 12/05/2011 at 07:13:47 AM
Reply to message
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A. - 11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM 1473 Views
*NM* - 11/05/2011 06:10:26 PM 341 Views
I am happy to see this. *NM* - 11/05/2011 07:22:59 PM 379 Views
Homosexuals must die! - 11/05/2011 08:25:25 PM 1136 Views
I agree! This sort of behavior can NOT be excused!!! - 11/05/2011 10:38:16 PM 785 Views
Yay!!. - 11/05/2011 10:38:51 PM 1047 Views
Glad to hear it. *NM* - 11/05/2011 10:46:39 PM 429 Views
Well done. *NM* - 11/05/2011 11:07:22 PM 378 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification? - 12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM 1047 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests. - 12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM 954 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood? - 12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM 894 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much. - 12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM 834 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned - 12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM 859 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route. - 14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM 806 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible. - 14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM 880 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means. - 14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM 1045 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy. - 14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM 872 Views
Wow. - 20/05/2011 10:15:21 AM 891 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though). - 12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM 932 Views
It's more a question of interpretational standards. - 12/05/2011 02:29:43 PM 820 Views
Agreed. - 14/05/2011 01:17:45 AM 894 Views
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible. - 12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM 986 Views
Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all? - 12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM 835 Views
They did so, via negativa. - 12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM 987 Views
Your church has a constitution?! - 12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM 870 Views
My Church has a congress! *NM* - 12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM 418 Views
Haha no way! *NM* - 12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM 378 Views
We have a General Assembly and a Moderator. - 12/05/2011 04:18:34 PM 968 Views
I had no idea the US was based on that system. - 12/05/2011 06:22:58 PM 796 Views
It is pretty common practice - 12/05/2011 06:54:02 PM 837 Views
Oh I'm sure it is with newer churches. - 12/05/2011 10:49:11 PM 891 Views
I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible. - 12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM 1046 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape. - 12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM 876 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit. - 12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM 1005 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis - 12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM 919 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any. - 12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM 889 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? - 13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM 900 Views
Re: Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? - 13/05/2011 07:02:35 PM 881 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part. - 13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM 796 Views
Danny will correct me if I'm wrong, but... - 13/05/2011 09:55:14 PM 997 Views
Danny persistently refuses to say that - 13/05/2011 10:13:55 PM 927 Views
And with respect to your textual point, once again you're wrong - 12/05/2011 07:44:10 PM 1019 Views
You're a fucking moron. *NM* - 15/05/2011 11:11:08 PM 402 Views
You make a very important but too often overlooked point. - 14/05/2011 01:54:40 AM 1004 Views
??? the bible was harsher on homosexulaity than on rape - 12/05/2011 06:56:43 PM 858 Views
Read Judges. - 12/05/2011 07:17:29 PM 867 Views
Another example... - 12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM 790 Views
That's what people said about churches opposing slavery. - 12/05/2011 04:06:26 PM 852 Views
I rest my case *NM* - 12/05/2011 04:48:32 PM 370 Views
That is a false dichotomy and we both know it. - 14/05/2011 02:07:19 AM 840 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct. - 12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM 786 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats. - 12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM 838 Views
We both know that isn't the case - 12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM 931 Views
Whatever your issue is, get over it. - 13/05/2011 06:17:26 PM 804 Views
You'd be a lot more effective... - 13/05/2011 06:45:31 PM 923 Views
You haven't adequately expressed your theology - 13/05/2011 07:28:54 PM 904 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels - 12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM 906 Views
Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... - 13/05/2011 07:14:01 PM 814 Views
Re: Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... - 15/05/2011 03:18:23 PM 1221 Views

Reply to Message