Active Users:197 Time:19/05/2024 06:43:18 AM
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible. Joel Send a noteboard - 12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
"It is better to marry than burn" is hardly a seal of approval.

For that matter, why are we letting women in the priesthood? We don't know if that's okay either. I mean, sure, we know they can be Christians, but are we sure it's okay for them to LEAD Christians? I personally am not convinced either way, and since I have trouble dealing with change I don't think anybody anywhere should take chances. Risk is just so un-Christian.


tl;dr Aren't you glad you're not a Presbyterian.

Both in the Old and New Testaments, so Pauls particular hang ups don't bother me much, particularly given that he expressly says more than once in the NT that an opinion he's giving is just that: His opinion. That's a far cry from the consistent position throughout the text and Church history down to, what, like 10-20 years ago? forbidding practicing homosexuality. As for marriage in general, Levites were married, and saying bishops must be "the husband of only one wife" seems to make it pretty clear that they can marry at least once, even if it's open to debate whether that forbids them plural marriage, divorce and/or remarriage after their first wifes death. There's not even a scriptural suggestion priests can't marry. I've never been really clear where the prohibition came from in the Roman Catholic Church.

The cases you cite aren't nearly as ambiguous (and from the perspective of scripture, Church Fathers and historical Church practice "amibiguous" is generous when applied to practicing homosexuality). It's not a matter of simply saying "risk is un-Christian", it's a matter of a great weight of evidence arguing against the acceptable of practicing homosexuality vs. many scriptural arguments against it subjected to VERY novel and unprecedented interpretations, almost exclusively by people with a vested interest in the outcome. Generally speaking risk is fine, but when the risk offending God it's best avoided, and if a Church leader does something universally regarded as offensive to God until the last few decades s/he better have pretty solid evidence that the recent decades political decisions are more than that, and actually reflect Gods will.

TL;DR version: There are ample Old and New Testament precedents for both women Church leaders and married priests; there are none for practicing homosexual priests, and a great deal of evidence to the contrary, both of which have been reflected in Church writings and practices since. Even "it is better to marry than to burn" doesn't qualify because any homosexual couple seeking a Church marriage would've been dismissed out of hand in Moses' day, in Davids, in Pauls, in Augustines, in Aquinas' and even in C.S. Lewis'. I'm sure it would be very convenient for all of us to alter Gods will when it suits us, but that's not what Christ did in Gethsemane, is it? Whom is the Head of the Body of Christ?
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 12/05/2011 at 07:13:47 AM
Reply to message
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A. - 11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM 1286 Views
*NM* - 11/05/2011 06:10:26 PM 265 Views
I am happy to see this. *NM* - 11/05/2011 07:22:59 PM 297 Views
Homosexuals must die! - 11/05/2011 08:25:25 PM 953 Views
I agree! This sort of behavior can NOT be excused!!! - 11/05/2011 10:38:16 PM 604 Views
Yay!!. - 11/05/2011 10:38:51 PM 780 Views
Glad to hear it. *NM* - 11/05/2011 10:46:39 PM 365 Views
Well done. *NM* - 11/05/2011 11:07:22 PM 306 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification? - 12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM 791 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests. - 12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM 780 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood? - 12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM 724 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much. - 12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM 674 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned - 12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM 675 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route. - 14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM 648 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible. - 14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM 703 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means. - 14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM 874 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy. - 14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM 680 Views
Wow. - 20/05/2011 10:15:21 AM 696 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though). - 12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM 744 Views
It's more a question of interpretational standards. - 12/05/2011 02:29:43 PM 642 Views
Agreed. - 14/05/2011 01:17:45 AM 718 Views
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible. - 12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM 776 Views
Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all? - 12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM 651 Views
They did so, via negativa. - 12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM 818 Views
Your church has a constitution?! - 12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM 672 Views
My Church has a congress! *NM* - 12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM 349 Views
Haha no way! *NM* - 12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM 298 Views
We have a General Assembly and a Moderator. - 12/05/2011 04:18:34 PM 768 Views
I had no idea the US was based on that system. - 12/05/2011 06:22:58 PM 601 Views
It is pretty common practice - 12/05/2011 06:54:02 PM 639 Views
Oh I'm sure it is with newer churches. - 12/05/2011 10:49:11 PM 694 Views
I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible. - 12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM 860 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape. - 12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM 696 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit. - 12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM 805 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis - 12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM 750 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any. - 12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM 714 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? - 13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM 705 Views
Re: Oh, is that how we're playing this, then? - 13/05/2011 07:02:35 PM 694 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part. - 13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM 636 Views
Danny will correct me if I'm wrong, but... - 13/05/2011 09:55:14 PM 816 Views
Danny persistently refuses to say that - 13/05/2011 10:13:55 PM 744 Views
You're a fucking moron. *NM* - 15/05/2011 11:11:08 PM 334 Views
You make a very important but too often overlooked point. - 14/05/2011 01:54:40 AM 775 Views
??? the bible was harsher on homosexulaity than on rape - 12/05/2011 06:56:43 PM 670 Views
Read Judges. - 12/05/2011 07:17:29 PM 675 Views
Another example... - 12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM 612 Views
That's what people said about churches opposing slavery. - 12/05/2011 04:06:26 PM 663 Views
I rest my case *NM* - 12/05/2011 04:48:32 PM 292 Views
That is a false dichotomy and we both know it. - 14/05/2011 02:07:19 AM 668 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct. - 12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM 590 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats. - 12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM 651 Views
We both know that isn't the case - 12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM 757 Views
Whatever your issue is, get over it. - 13/05/2011 06:17:26 PM 626 Views
You'd be a lot more effective... - 13/05/2011 06:45:31 PM 733 Views
You haven't adequately expressed your theology - 13/05/2011 07:28:54 PM 729 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels - 12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM 714 Views
Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... - 13/05/2011 07:14:01 PM 620 Views
Re: Since I haven't gotten around to asking yet... - 15/05/2011 03:18:23 PM 1019 Views

Reply to Message