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interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? moondog Send a noteboard - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM

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He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither. People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.


in this case, what freedom specifically are you giving up or sacrificing? the new laws being proposed have zero to do with taking anyone's guns away unless they are a convicted felon or have other violent tendencies or mental illness. how does that infringe upon your individual right to keep and bear arms? are you suggesting that criminals and the criminally insane should have unfettered access to any and all weaponry available on the market?

also, how does a limit on how many bullets you can fire at one time count as sacrificing your freedoms? you still have your guns, you still are able to fire them, i'm not seeing where the sacrifice is coming from.

"The RIAA has shown a certain disregard for the creative people of the industry in their eagerness to protect the revenues of the record companies." -- Frank Zappa

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman
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US Senate Democrats - already cave-in on the gun control bill Anonymous2000 - 19/03/2013 10:44:55 PM 1440 Views
right wingers are always point out there is no point legislating cosmetics moondog - 19/03/2013 11:52:28 PM 855 Views
Late Term Abortion, Terry Schavio? *NM* Roland00 - 19/03/2013 11:57:25 PM 420 Views
You know, what you are hoping for will not make any difference whatsoever..... Anonymous2000 - 20/03/2013 01:07:58 AM 722 Views
"if at first you don't succeed..... fuck it...." moondog - 20/03/2013 04:10:47 AM 730 Views
I can agree with some of what you stated, though I prefer "logical" to "right winger" HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 01:56:34 AM 775 Views
you are correct. i forget sometimes that there **is** some common ground here.... moondog - 20/03/2013 04:19:13 AM 681 Views
There'd be more common ground if anything were ever offered in exchange for concessions Isaac - 20/03/2013 02:20:26 PM 727 Views
Ben Franklin said it best... HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 04:14:45 PM 698 Views
interesting how that quote always applies to so many things, isn't it? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:14:30 PM 691 Views
Absolutely HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:20:45 AM 755 Views
Re: Ben Franklin said it best... Isaac - 21/03/2013 07:16:25 AM 802 Views
There can be NO negotiation, that is the point. This is a Constitutionally protected Right. HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:03:54 PM 741 Views
Including Capital Letters in pronouncements do NOT make something so Isaac - 21/03/2013 02:56:43 PM 773 Views
1st Amendment absolutism suggests libel and slander are unconstitutional. moondog - 21/03/2013 07:24:34 PM 727 Views
One person's rights end where another's begin, as you well know. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:38:37 AM 712 Views
all the same, none of the proposed laws truly infringe on your right to keep or use those guns.... moondog - 22/03/2013 07:29:52 PM 762 Views
Apparently you did not read Feinstein's, you know the one that started this whole thread... HyogaRott - 23/03/2013 06:26:57 PM 733 Views
i'm aware of her statements, you'll have to actually prove your point.... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:35:11 AM 643 Views
Her bill tried to eliminate my (and everone's) right to own all but 2,000 specific weapons. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:30:56 PM 724 Views
"A well-regulated militia...." moondog - 25/03/2013 07:27:48 PM 853 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meant "able to use it effectively" HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:23:07 PM 739 Views
we are long past the point where defense against tyranny is feasible moondog - 26/03/2013 07:48:37 PM 725 Views
Feasibility is not the issue, it is the rule of law. HyogaRott - 27/03/2013 03:55:24 PM 787 Views
if there have to be concessions, what do you recommend? moondog - 20/03/2013 05:10:53 PM 808 Views
That would depend, something of equal value Isaac - 20/03/2013 09:13:23 PM 705 Views
when very little is being given up, how do we determine equal value? moondog - 20/03/2013 10:31:59 PM 971 Views
Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 10:53:22 AM 719 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining moondog - 21/03/2013 07:16:57 PM 780 Views
Re: Outside of legislature people do it all the time, its called negotiation and bargaining Isaac - 21/03/2013 08:53:20 PM 861 Views
some answers moondog - 21/03/2013 10:04:45 PM 1093 Views
Re: some answers Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:33:21 PM 871 Views
Re: the NRA moondog - 22/03/2013 07:44:06 PM 716 Views
This is a matter of POV bias Isaac - 22/03/2013 09:04:25 PM 648 Views
we will have to agree to disagree then moondog - 22/03/2013 10:12:02 PM 708 Views
I already knew we disagreed, that's why I suggested bargaining Isaac - 22/03/2013 11:11:04 PM 698 Views
i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) moondog - 23/03/2013 12:13:18 AM 645 Views
Re: i am merely taking the NRA at their word(s) Isaac - 23/03/2013 02:04:39 AM 907 Views
i am not trying to sway, just come to an understanding moondog - 23/03/2013 03:03:14 PM 866 Views
I think you've actually managed to widen our gap Isaac - 23/03/2013 03:53:55 PM 884 Views
yes, because it was a failed attempt to re-boot and start the debate from the beginning..... moondog - 24/03/2013 03:33:05 AM 1067 Views
I've difficulty seeing the point of going back to first principles but I'm willing to try Isaac - 24/03/2013 02:13:29 PM 691 Views
this has been more insightful than our previous tit-for-tat responses, actually moondog - 26/03/2013 07:40:27 PM 679 Views
There's always room for reaosnable dialogue Isaac - 26/03/2013 10:09:58 PM 955 Views
even so, we are at yet another impasse.... moondog - 26/03/2013 11:37:04 PM 788 Views
Probably, I don't know why that surprises you Isaac - 27/03/2013 02:02:54 AM 653 Views
There are many more laws and regulations on the industry than you seem to be aware of. HyogaRott - 20/03/2013 03:58:19 PM 750 Views
the existing laws and how they are enforced are completely different problems moondog - 20/03/2013 05:32:31 PM 767 Views
I have no problems with actually enforcing existing laws, in fact I want to see that before new 1 *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 12:17:40 AM 378 Views
I can see the argument for limiting magazine capapcity but it would be hard to enforce random thoughts - 20/03/2013 05:11:51 PM 706 Views
as with most laws, some amount of grandfathering will probably be necessary moondog - 20/03/2013 05:34:57 PM 678 Views
It would be a stupid meaningless "feel good" law as changing magazines takes almost no time. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:05:34 PM 378 Views
I can't argue that random thoughts - 21/03/2013 06:14:09 PM 716 Views
canada's magazine restrictions are credited with reducing fatalities in a mass shooting moondog - 21/03/2013 07:22:45 PM 785 Views
what is high capacity? random thoughts - 21/03/2013 11:09:09 PM 676 Views
according to the law, whatever is larger than the legal limit moondog - 21/03/2013 11:31:08 PM 707 Views
There is no gun control, only gun *centralization* Nighthawk - 20/03/2013 05:32:59 PM 737 Views
Regarding guns sold which are used in crimes Jeordam - 20/03/2013 10:41:21 PM 695 Views
Your specified legal requirements already exist. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 02:05:12 AM 371 Views
So what other stipulations would you put into effect? *NM* Jeordam - 21/03/2013 02:42:53 AM 354 Views
none- I'd simply actually punish criminals instead of trying to "reform" them. *NM* HyogaRott - 21/03/2013 01:13:29 PM 374 Views
Criminals need to be punished AND reformed for their inevitable release back into society *NM* Nighthawk - 21/03/2013 11:58:20 PM 347 Views
I've always been rather partial to the criminal justice system in Heinlein's Starship Troopers novel HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 02:42:09 AM 789 Views
Yeah you're right. Let's just kill everybody who commits a crime Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 02:46:49 AM 720 Views
*NM* ironclad - 22/03/2013 10:55:36 AM 377 Views
That's not in Starship Troopers Isaac - 22/03/2013 12:51:44 PM 723 Views
Yeah, there was a small number of capital offenses (13 I think), most not specified. HyogaRott - 22/03/2013 05:27:11 PM 693 Views
So what's your solution? Smaller sentences? Or death penalty for everybody? Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 06:33:13 PM 705 Views
I don't have a truly viable one. I just have a bunch of ideas that no one would want to enact. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:49:58 PM 707 Views
14 then, he lists stupidity as one in another book Isaac - 22/03/2013 07:35:13 PM 730 Views
That's why we NEED to reform prisoners Nighthawk - 22/03/2013 10:33:08 PM 673 Views
It is probably an option we should work harder to develop Isaac - 23/03/2013 12:38:33 AM 723 Views
Out of curiosity. Is anyone against background checks at gun shows, and if so, why? *NM* Ghavrel - 21/03/2013 09:38:59 AM 361 Views
Not in principle but somewhat in practice Isaac - 21/03/2013 11:25:25 AM 861 Views
For what its worth.... Jeordam - 21/03/2013 03:13:44 PM 683 Views
Personally, I am worried about criminals with guns. BUT... callandor1000 - 22/03/2013 03:44:47 PM 995 Views
What you are not factoring into your though process is that most criminals feels the same way. HyogaRott - 24/03/2013 12:56:04 PM 992 Views
I realize that can be the case. But... callandor1000 - 25/03/2013 03:32:59 PM 961 Views
Twice I was almost robbed, and my parents were robbed several times. HyogaRott - 26/03/2013 01:35:11 PM 607 Views
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