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Attempt at clarification Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/03/2017 12:55:03 AM


Your argument about the Orthodox Church (a cynical propaganda maneuver) would make sense if taken in isolation, but you then cite his paranoia and need for total control of society as the fundamental cause of his schemes of industrialization, collectivization and militarization. You can't have it both ways in your argument: either he was so obsessed with control that he destroyed everything he didn't control absolutely and completely (which would have included the Church),
I would simply have assumed he had the Church under his thumb when he let it come back.
or he was superstitious (which is borne out by many eyewitnesses). I never said he was a "true believer" or a man of faith. I merely said he retained a visceral, superstitious fear of God following the Nazi invasion.

Yeah, I understood.
And as for your question, no, the socialist ideologues of his generation were decidedly NOT anti-military. They opposed "imperialist wars" but they were actively arming the "working class" for open class warfare. This is evident not only from the Bolshevik coup, but also from the experience of many other countries at the time (most notably, Germany, where proto-Nazis got their start fighting armed Spartacists in the streets).
I forgot about that.
It's also a misconception that Stalin executed competent generals. When you look at the ones executed and the ones who remain, it becomes clear he executed the incompetent ones. Dybenko, for example, fled the field of battle in the Russian Civil War and his only exploits were against unarmed peasants. Many others were opponents of the use of the tank and favored continued reliance on cavalry.
What about Tukachevsky? The man all but invented Soviet tank doctrine. And as a counter-example, Kulik or Budyony? Unless I'm getting confused here, you are saying that Stalin weeded out the stick-in-the-mud cavalry generals, who preferred horses to tanks, but not only to Kulik and Budyony fit that description very well (In fact, both of the two Marshals who survived the purge better fit that description than the three who were killed), they survived their failures and retained Stalin's favor. Tukachevsky, meanwhile, was the Russian equivalent of Fuller or Liddell-Hart, and while he might not have been quite as good a general as Soviet propaganda made him out to be (he got his ass kicked by the Poles and was frequently outfought by the Whites), he was probably the best they had near the top until Zhukov came along. And Stalin purged him. I think I read somewhere that the original copy of his signed "confession" has visible bloodstains.
The "Stalin executed all the good generals and senior officers" myth was one that the Soviets spread in the 1950s and 1960s to deflect attention from the fact that Stalin (and his successors) were planning to take over the world.
How would that work? It might make a good excuse for the general incompetence demonstrated by Soviet forces as a whole in the war, but I don't see how claiming that Stalin had killed your best generals clears you of the charge of plotting world conquest.
I have no idea what you're talking about on the 76.2mm gun, since Russia was using 76.2mm guns in World War I as well. Can you cite a source?
Why would they have anti-tank guns to fight an opponent who had not even invented tanks? They might have had field guns of that particular caliber, but the guns I was referring to were interwar designs, that were used as both anti-tank artillery and a variant as the main armament for the T-34 & the KV series. Kulik or Budyony was the one who quelled their production, I am pretty sure. I can't think of any other Russian generals with whom I would have been so familiar.
As for the uselessness of the captured Soviet tanks,

Actually, I was talking about the utility of tanks that remained in Soviet hands. The Germans did just fine with them, because they were better at converting Soviet equipment. They were problematic in Russian hands because of the ineptitude of the Soviet supply services and manufacturing priorities. They made tanks, but not tank parts, and the tanks were assembled in communist factories, so many of them were not very functional even fresh off the assembly line. The ones the Germans got their hands on would have been the working ones, and suitable for refurbishment.
I would also like to see a source. The sheer numbers of tanks seized, combined with their mention in the memoirs of Guderian and others, makes me skeptical of the claim.
I wasn't disputing the numbers of captured Soviet equipment or the efficacy of some Soviet designs, but rather making the point that in the USSR, under communist production methods and economics, mere stats on the total number of vehicles or guns produced have little bearing on the efficacy of the military. Not all tanks and planes performed up to spec, many that did were not well enough made to keep up standards of performance for very long, and in the Red Army itself, general incompetence and lack of true understanding of the realities of mechanized combat made keeping the vehicles operational for very long problematic at best. Stalin was the one most responsible by that point for the USSR having such horrible manufacturing capabilities, as well as the mindset where it was safer to conceal technical problems, because bringing them to someone's attention could cause you to be shot as a wrecker. All those
In any event, this isn't designed to be a debate over whether or not the Soviet Union could have won the war without Allied help after the Nazi attack, or whether or not the casualty rate was sustainable (prior to the Kursk counteroffensive in 1943, it wasn't, and everyone agrees on that point).
But it's largely a due to Stalin's leadership that it was NOT sustainable, and that the Soviets were taking too many casualties. After his little sulk in his dacha to force the leadership to come begging to him, rather than question his infallibility at being caught by surprise, Stalin ordered an ongoing series of attacks, refused to permit tactical withdrawals and had men who were encircled but fought their way out sent to camps or shot outright as deserters. Given the manpower, natural resources, potential industrial capacity and number of excellent hardware designs available, a halfway decent leader could have crafted a much more successful defense of the country, rather than letting the best part of the USSR be repeatedly devastated by armies moving back and forth across it. Certainly he should have done better against the ramshackle shadow of the Kaiser's army that was the Nazi Wehrmacht.
The question is whether or not the Red Army had the equipment and resources to start a war against Germany. The answer to that question is that it did.

But Stalin had little or nothing to do with that, and what they did have was rendered less effective by the context in which it was produced and deployed, said context being a prison-camp of a country that made Carroll's Wonderland look rational. Stalin directly contributed to the suspicion of modern tactics, the inefficiencies of supply and production and the degradation of the armed force's capabilities. People like to give the communists credit for industrializing Russia, but Niall Ferguson said Czarist Russia was industrializing rapidly (which was one of Germany's rationales for giving Austria the "blank check" - they wanted to put down Russia before they got too strong), and it actually slowed down with the Soviet takeover. And Stalin's "four legs good; tank treads bad" cronies at the top of the Red Army certainly didn't help matters.
Yes, it would have suffered heavier casualties than an army with more advanced equipment or better training, but had the Soviet air force gotten into the air, it had the numbers and gunnery to overwhelm the Luftwaffe, just like the Soviet tanks could hold their own against the German tanks (Hell, the Germans still used PzKpfw Mark Is in Barbarossa, and those things were shit).
Well, warfare is not a duel of like weapons, and Germany's anti-tank guns were sufficient for the shitty 1941 tanks to get nearly to Moscow, and to capture those vaunted stores of Soviet equipment. All the cleverly sloped frontal armor and superior guns on a tank doesn't help when they are ordered into mindless frontal assaults, and get shot in the rear by flanking and enveloping forces, because Hitler let his officers use tactics.
The entire reason that I discussed Stalin's military buildup was not to allow you to start a pissing match over the minutiae of World War II, which I understand is a hobby for a wide range of people from ex-military types to 300-pound retired mechanical engineers, inclusively.

Fuck off. I'm pretty sure NO ONE posts things to allow you to start pissing matches over minutiae of foreign languages, and yet...

My point about the "minutiae" was attempting to point out that Stalin, in the interests of securing his position against even imaginary enemies, debilitated the functionality of the state and military apparatus. Pointing out that he ordered lots of weapons produced and planned an attack on Germany (because his last attack, on a country totally devoid of modern weapons, with a fraction of Germany's manpower and industrial capacity went SOOOO well) does not prove he was acting out of devotion to world revolution instead of the usual motives of tyrants bent on conquest. And his particular approach of cronyism and chopping off any heads that stuck up through merit, and engendering a climate of terror in the country meant that much of his military preparations were completely undermined by the debased condition of the citizenry and government.


The point was to show that Stalin never at any point swore off the notion of worldwide revolution that the "ideologues" Lenin and Trotsky had worked to achieve.
I never said he did. I simply believe that he was acting more out of personal desire for power, for which lip service to the Revolution served as a useful camouflage, much the way religion served the Borgias.
I stand by my assertion that Stalin was not qualitatively different from Lenin or Trotsky. Neither of them wanted revolution if they weren't leading it. If Lenin were committed to revolution rather than power, he wouldn't have gotten rid of the legitimately elected parliament that was mostly composed of Social Revolutionaries with a strong Bolshevik presence. He wouldn't have murdered Mensheviks and left-leaning Social Revolutionaries who shared his goals.
Absolutely.
Trotsky, similarly, saw Stalin implementing many of his own ideas, but because it was Stalin, and not Trotsky, doing the implementing, he railed against Stalin mercilessly (and without anyone listening).

Your original statement was that people see Lenin and Trotsky as "ideologues" and Stalin as "just a thug". My point is that, regardless of anything else, Stalin was not fundamentally different from Lenin or Trotsky.


In action, and in results, no. My point was just a casual observation that he seemed much more cynical than they, and more of an opportunist who was using communism as his vehicle for power, whereas Lenin and Trotsky might have conflated their own success with that of the Revolution, perhaps even seeing themselves as necessary to it. I certainly never meant to even imply that in any way excuses their actions or morally redeems them to any degree.
Lenin wrote more, yes, because he was in power for less time. So perhaps he's a bit of the Saul Alinsky to Stalin's Obama. However, in a qualitative sense, they're essentially the same. The same ambition, thirst for power, willingness to use any means to obtain and maintain it, indifference to human suffering, willingness to "sacrifice" the Russian people for a chimera of world revolution and writings that are practically unreadable. There's not one point where they differ, except that Stalin threw better dinner parties and was 100% paranoid, whereas the others were only perhaps 75% paranoid.

I don't know. I still think he's more of a Borgia pope when it comes to socialist ideology, than say, a John Calvin, who imposed tyranny and took power with what appears to be real belief in his version. It's an admittedly flawed analogy, but explaining a personal perception is difficult. I wasn't actually trying to argue, merely offer my perception of a minor aspect of the characters of the men involved. It's entirely possible that had Trotsky succeeded Lenin, maybe Tukachevsky would have survived and been able to successfully modernize the Red Army, or maybe Trotsky would have screwed things up in a different way. I wouldn't put it past the guy who tried to play Zor and Zam to the German Empire. On the other hand, in Lenin's shoes, Stalin would definitely have purged Stalin. Maybe that just makes him a smarter example of the breed

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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The February Revolution and Kerensky’s Missed Opportunity - 13/03/2017 09:37:00 PM 678 Views
Fascinating stuff - 13/03/2017 10:52:58 PM 320 Views
Who knows? It could have been worse off. - 13/03/2017 11:37:54 PM 413 Views
What's your opinion on Lenin? - 14/03/2017 02:06:59 AM 356 Views
Lenin. A monster. - 14/03/2017 12:55:18 PM 387 Views
Thanks. I'll ask him too. *NM* - 14/03/2017 03:01:36 PM 186 Views
Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky were all bloodthirsty mass murderers. - 14/03/2017 08:59:06 PM 409 Views
That's fascinating. But give me a book recommendation! - 14/03/2017 09:15:57 PM 323 Views
Start with a general history of Russia - 14/03/2017 10:17:22 PM 434 Views
Excellent. Thank you. It's next on the list. - 15/03/2017 02:11:14 AM 391 Views
Russian history is as depressing as they come. - 15/03/2017 12:08:15 PM 393 Views
Read Figes first, I suppose. - 14/03/2017 10:55:23 PM 347 Views
Thanks, Tom. I've been putting off reading good literature because of my unfamiliarity with Russia. *NM* - 15/03/2017 02:12:10 AM 177 Views
Which books have you put off reading? *NM* - 15/03/2017 12:05:32 PM 164 Views
DEMONS and THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV are the big two. - 15/03/2017 02:58:13 PM 332 Views
You don't necessarily need to know the history. - 15/03/2017 03:15:38 PM 369 Views
I'm always afraid I'm missing something critical, though! - 15/03/2017 03:50:59 PM 320 Views
Annotations are amazing. My eBook version of War and Peace was the same. - 15/03/2017 04:03:59 PM 342 Views
My High School English teacher neglected Russian literature. - 16/03/2017 01:46:29 AM 300 Views
Hmmmm. - 16/03/2017 01:18:14 PM 337 Views
Tolstoy was a reprehensible human being - 15/03/2017 04:02:52 PM 321 Views
I had no idea. I was under the impression he was deeply devout. - 16/03/2017 01:47:43 AM 340 Views
Here's one example: - 16/03/2017 02:06:45 AM 335 Views
Good lord. The man sounds deranged. But that's fascinating! Is there a good biography on him? *NM* - 16/03/2017 07:50:10 AM 166 Views
Pavel Basinsky's bio is best - 16/03/2017 02:46:47 PM 487 Views
Getting it now. Thanks. *NM* - 16/03/2017 11:06:25 PM 169 Views
For what it's worth, I read Lenin & Trotsky as genuine idealists, while Stalin as just a thug - 15/03/2017 11:16:36 AM 377 Views
I think that's entirely incorrect. - 15/03/2017 04:00:54 PM 377 Views
I didn't mean stupid or brutish, I meant more like a mafia don than a statesman - 16/03/2017 12:18:34 PM 286 Views
Well if you want to completely redefine the phrase "just a thug", perhaps you're right - 16/03/2017 02:43:38 PM 329 Views
Good point - 16/03/2017 09:52:29 PM 415 Views
I hear what you're saying, but... - 16/03/2017 11:53:19 PM 346 Views
Attempt at clarification - 17/03/2017 12:55:03 AM 408 Views
Hehehe..."Fuck off" - 19/03/2017 05:23:49 PM 351 Views
Seems kind of nonsensical - 14/03/2017 01:33:49 AM 423 Views
Good reply. - 14/03/2017 12:57:47 PM 405 Views
They weren't really wrong - 14/03/2017 01:30:07 PM 428 Views
I do enjoy historical "what if" situations. - 14/03/2017 01:47:27 AM 348 Views
Hi there. - 14/03/2017 01:02:44 PM 308 Views
I still think democracy among those insidiously intrusive Western values Russia resists so fiercely - 14/03/2017 02:37:39 PM 343 Views
Is it your persistant anti-Russia bias that makes you so dogmatic? - 14/03/2017 02:51:23 PM 342 Views
I have no problem with Russia, only its government - 14/03/2017 03:07:14 PM 364 Views
Really? - 14/03/2017 03:15:10 PM 358 Views
What a terrible article - 14/03/2017 08:04:50 PM 312 Views
I thought you would think this way. - 15/03/2017 12:04:57 PM 397 Views
I can't decide what I think about Evans - 15/03/2017 04:10:05 PM 313 Views

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