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Re: That works both ways Joel Send a noteboard - 15/03/2010 06:28:45 AM
As recently noted, Canada and other countries innovate just fine, but far be it from me to let that interfere with good rhetoric. :P

Thank you Joel, I did just say "Forget for the moment how well it is or isn't working in other countries", this is an ER situation, not chronic treatment, he's come down with a trauma case of 'Lefty', a shot of adrenaline to the heart is necessary ;)

You also said, "Remember how much of modern medicine relies on technological advancement, and consider where innovation tends to come from, and exactly how much incentive companies are going to have to do R&D when the price and profit for their efforts will probably be set by DC. " A lot of innovation has come from countries with public healthcare (especially in a number of recently Canadian examples. ) If you meant, "consider where innovation tends to come from, but only consider it within a country with no public healthcare" then, yes, it's axiomatic that innovation comes from the private sector, but I don't see what that proves other than the fact America has no public healthcare, which we already knew.

Meanwhile, according to pharmaceutical executives the bulk of their overhead goes to advertising, not R&D, so maybe the problem is less non-existent US public healthcare than the drive for profits above all.
Anyway, my main point is it's a little disingenuous when government programs are hamstrung by a party that then cites the resulting poor performance as proof government programs don't work. It's like putting Kim Jong Il in charge of the IAEA and then pointing to North Korea as "proof" it doesn't work. If a system is designed to fail failure isn't a huge surprise, but it's sometimes more indicative of poor management than an inherently poor system. There are a lot of critics of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, but few among those receiving any of them, and even those few usually complain they don't get MORE government services. Fortunately we have things like private retirement investments and private healthcare for those who can afford the greater service they desire, but, once again, no one who CAN'T afford more is forced to accept nothing.

Yes, pro-capitalists sometimes sabotage socialist programs and then scream about failure, and pro-socialists regularly point at enterprises that are way far away from genuine free-market examples via their regulation and scream about corporate greed and it's failures. I don't think either set of cases represent the norm or are responsible for most of the problems that pop up. To your other point, I don't consider customer satisfaction of vote yourself rich schemes much of an argument, and before you say it, no, obviously few beneficiaries get rich from it, not the point.

In my experience, recent and otherwise, pro-socialists typically point to disasters that prompted regulation and recurred only after that regulation was repealed by "free" market acolytes. And, yes, the point of the "vote yourself rich" claim is very much about trying to politically mandate prosperity; no one is trying to get ahead because they get public healthcare: They're just trying to survive.
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This message last edited by Joel on 15/03/2010 at 06:29:54 AM
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Oh my god...I'm a socialist! - 05/03/2010 02:46:17 PM 698 Views
Just remind yourself how good the government is with its other efforts - 05/03/2010 03:00:26 PM 410 Views
The problem with "look how bad govt. programs are" is it ignores the "starve the beast" theory. - 05/03/2010 05:51:50 PM 497 Views
That works both ways - 05/03/2010 06:13:43 PM 462 Views
Re: That works both ways - 15/03/2010 06:28:45 AM 466 Views
Don't worry it isn't like we have free market economics in health care right now - 05/03/2010 03:19:39 PM 425 Views
Hold on a sec. - 05/03/2010 05:58:00 PM 427 Views
Well you should read somehting besides the Daily Kos - 05/03/2010 06:25:23 PM 402 Views
That's getting tiresome, since you know it doesn't apply. - 15/03/2010 07:13:38 AM 394 Views
Very true. *NM* - 05/03/2010 11:45:36 PM 155 Views
That's not really a socialist policy. - 05/03/2010 03:24:59 PM 436 Views
you don't seem to understand socialism. visit wikipedia and check it out there. *NM* - 05/03/2010 05:16:02 PM 157 Views
Tongue. In. Cheek. *NM* - 05/03/2010 05:47:40 PM 152 Views
Making healthcare universally accessible is not socialist... - 05/03/2010 05:29:16 PM 394 Views
It is universally accessible now - 05/03/2010 05:43:52 PM 411 Views
Ah, like the Rolls Royce is universally acceptable. - 05/03/2010 05:52:59 PM 389 Views
use more words becuase that statement makes no sense - 05/03/2010 06:27:04 PM 415 Views
... - 15/03/2010 06:34:57 AM 385 Views
BS *NM* - 05/03/2010 06:08:52 PM 147 Views
BSS - 05/03/2010 06:28:15 PM 383 Views
Random Thoughts - 05/03/2010 06:31:00 PM 377 Views
It is the over simplification I object to - 05/03/2010 06:59:29 PM 381 Views
Thus the BS comment - 05/03/2010 07:37:22 PM 399 Views
is this not a paradox you've proposed here? - 05/03/2010 06:25:08 PM 421 Views
Universal healthcare is good... - 05/03/2010 10:13:01 PM 414 Views
great I was really hoping we could hear from a moron and you seem to fit the bill - 05/03/2010 11:39:15 PM 398 Views
I think he was joking RT - note the at the end of the message *NM* - 06/03/2010 09:23:45 AM 206 Views
To much cold medicine *NM* - 06/03/2010 12:13:12 PM 160 Views
How does "Don't worry, it will never happen in America either way" sound? - 05/03/2010 11:49:23 PM 398 Views
Eww - 06/03/2010 11:39:04 PM 455 Views
no - 06/03/2010 11:42:47 PM 436 Views
The scariest ones are the ones who are both. - 06/03/2010 11:55:51 PM 503 Views
that and it is crawling with dirty forgieners - 07/03/2010 03:01:27 AM 415 Views

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