As recently noted, Canada and other countries innovate just fine, but far be it from me to let that interfere with good rhetoric. 

Thank you Joel, I did just say "Forget for the moment how well it is or isn't working in other countries", this is an ER situation, not chronic treatment, he's come down with a trauma case of 'Lefty', a shot of adrenaline to the heart is necessary

You also said, "Remember how much of modern medicine relies on technological advancement, and consider where innovation tends to come from, and exactly how much incentive companies are going to have to do R&D when the price and profit for their efforts will probably be set by DC. " A lot of innovation has come from countries with public healthcare (especially in a number of recently Canadian examples. ) If you meant, "consider where innovation tends to come from, but only consider it within a country with no public healthcare" then, yes, it's axiomatic that innovation comes from the private sector, but I don't see what that proves other than the fact America has no public healthcare, which we already knew.
Meanwhile, according to pharmaceutical executives the bulk of their overhead goes to advertising, not R&D, so maybe the problem is less non-existent US public healthcare than the drive for profits above all.
Anyway, my main point is it's a little disingenuous when government programs are hamstrung by a party that then cites the resulting poor performance as proof government programs don't work. It's like putting Kim Jong Il in charge of the IAEA and then pointing to North Korea as "proof" it doesn't work. If a system is designed to fail failure isn't a huge surprise, but it's sometimes more indicative of poor management than an inherently poor system. There are a lot of critics of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, but few among those receiving any of them, and even those few usually complain they don't get MORE government services. Fortunately we have things like private retirement investments and private healthcare for those who can afford the greater service they desire, but, once again, no one who CAN'T afford more is forced to accept nothing.
Yes, pro-capitalists sometimes sabotage socialist programs and then scream about failure, and pro-socialists regularly point at enterprises that are way far away from genuine free-market examples via their regulation and scream about corporate greed and it's failures. I don't think either set of cases represent the norm or are responsible for most of the problems that pop up. To your other point, I don't consider customer satisfaction of vote yourself rich schemes much of an argument, and before you say it, no, obviously few beneficiaries get rich from it, not the point.
In my experience, recent and otherwise, pro-socialists typically point to disasters that prompted regulation and recurred only after that regulation was repealed by "free" market acolytes. And, yes, the point of the "vote yourself rich" claim is very much about trying to politically mandate prosperity; no one is trying to get ahead because they get public healthcare: They're just trying to survive.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 15/03/2010 at 06:29:54 AM
Oh my god...I'm a socialist!
- 05/03/2010 02:46:17 PM
698 Views
Just remind yourself how good the government is with its other efforts
- 05/03/2010 03:00:26 PM
410 Views
And remember that some of the biggest health insurance companies are already "non-profits".
- 05/03/2010 03:18:45 PM
394 Views
The problem with "look how bad govt. programs are" is it ignores the "starve the beast" theory.
- 05/03/2010 05:51:50 PM
496 Views
That works both ways
- 05/03/2010 06:13:43 PM
461 Views
Re: That works both ways
- 15/03/2010 06:28:45 AM
465 Views
You really think taking the money oput of the system won't affect innovation?
- 05/03/2010 10:09:20 PM
395 Views
those drugs would probably still get developed, and at about the same rate as before
- 06/03/2010 07:14:07 AM
388 Views
Re: those drugs would probably still get developed, and at about the same rate as before
- 06/03/2010 09:37:44 AM
376 Views
just like taking the profit out of insurance will make healthcare affordable?
- 06/03/2010 12:12:25 PM
386 Views
No, I don't, because expired patents would drive it if nothing else did.
- 15/03/2010 06:32:55 AM
363 Views
Don't worry it isn't like we have free market economics in health care right now
- 05/03/2010 03:19:39 PM
425 Views
Hold on a sec.
- 05/03/2010 05:58:00 PM
427 Views
That's not really a socialist policy.
- 05/03/2010 03:24:59 PM
436 Views
True. The European far-right isn't really far-right (or even right) in economic terms. *NM*
- 05/03/2010 11:46:15 PM
159 Views
you don't seem to understand socialism. visit wikipedia and check it out there. *NM*
- 05/03/2010 05:16:02 PM
157 Views
Making healthcare universally accessible is not socialist...
- 05/03/2010 05:29:16 PM
393 Views
It is universally accessible now
- 05/03/2010 05:43:52 PM
410 Views
Ah, like the Rolls Royce is universally acceptable.
- 05/03/2010 05:52:59 PM
389 Views
BS *NM*
- 05/03/2010 06:08:52 PM
147 Views
BSS
- 05/03/2010 06:28:15 PM
383 Views
Random Thoughts
- 05/03/2010 06:31:00 PM
377 Views
For profit isn't automatically BAD, just an unwise panacea for essential services.
- 05/03/2010 05:45:36 PM
451 Views
Government run isn't automatically BAD, just an unwise panacea for essential services.
- 05/03/2010 06:30:14 PM
377 Views
Universal healthcare is good...
- 05/03/2010 10:13:01 PM
413 Views
great I was really hoping we could hear from a moron and you seem to fit the bill
- 05/03/2010 11:39:15 PM
398 Views
I think he was joking RT - note the
at the end of the message
*NM*
- 06/03/2010 09:23:45 AM
206 Views
at the end of the message
*NM*
- 06/03/2010 09:23:45 AM
206 Views
How does "Don't worry, it will never happen in America either way" sound?
- 05/03/2010 11:49:23 PM
397 Views
