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Re: It's a fact Joel Send a noteboard - 05/09/2009 03:18:39 AM
and citing one unfortunate case doesn't change that.

Happens to be the law, in fact; if you can't go anywhere else you can go to the most expensive source of medical care and after triage receive that care. Yet every time someone brings that up I recall the story of the Chicago man who came to the ER with chest pains, was diagnosed with indigestion, given Alka-Seltzer and discharged, then made it as far as the hospital before collapsing and dying of a heart attack.

Sounds like a misdiagnosis/or busy doctors not spending enough time on a patient. Which happens to people with insurance too. I can't tell you how many times doctors have blown off legitimate questions I have about my health because they might require more time and effort to address than just writing a prescription. I have to be rather insistent sometimes, and it turned out to be a good thing in one case.

The man in that case never saw a doctor, because he was never admitted. It's the kind of thing that, my second year with appendicitis, when it was ready to rupture, put my mother in the following conversation with the free clinic that had repeatedly misdiagnosed me:

"You need to take him to the county hospitals ER. "

"What if they won't admit him?"

"They have to admit him."

"Read my lips: WHAT IF THEY WON'T ADMIT HIM?!"

Ultimately she got a referral to insure they would, in fact, admit me, and after three hours of triage they examined me, informed me my appendix could burst any moment and put me in a room until a surgeon could get there. Actually, as I later learned, an intern who operated on me while students watched from the gallery. The county paid for that one, all that got paid, and it's probably best not to examine too closely how; I'm pretty sure the hospital committed fraud to get paid. Even then they wanted $700 from me for anesthesia the county considered an optional expense, as if I wouldn't have gone into shock and died without it. But without the referral I'm pretty sure the point, as my life, would be moot.
Citing ONE case as proof that our system is fucked up is faulty logic, especially when we don't know all the details. How do you know they were just trying to get rid of him because he didn't have insurance? Or is that just you, being you and jumping to the conclusion that will best support your argument?

How 'bout two...?
He was HAVING a heart attack when they "treated" him and they didn't catch it. Because they were just trying to get rid of someone who didn't have insurance, and did. Permanently. Incidentally, you don't ride in an ambulance for free either. One of the problems with our system as that the places that "must" provide those without insurance more than the basic care a clinic can provide are also the most rather than least expensive.

Which wasn't my point. My point was that what she said about her friend "flat out being denied treatment" if she were in the US is utterly false.

The guy was never admitted nor examined; they gave him an OTC med and sent him on his way instead. We're not talking about misreading a complex test result here; the man was having a heart attack, which would have been easily caught by the exam he was denied.
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For Europeans who don't understand why Americans are against ObamaCare Tom - 03/09/2009 04:24:35 AM 1446 Views
I'd be happy to tax top "earners" more and suffer Europes economic "collapse. " Joel - 03/09/2009 04:30:31 AM 873 Views
The US will never work with socialism. Tom - 03/09/2009 04:40:21 AM 950 Views
Re: The US will never work with socialism. Joel - 03/09/2009 04:58:47 AM 949 Views
I don't think the mistrust of the government is really all that overblown Brian - 03/09/2009 05:04:34 AM 863 Views
It's advanced beyond what it was during the Revolution, I think. Joel - 03/09/2009 05:18:22 AM 916 Views
I would say it's grown with the government Brian - 03/09/2009 05:23:52 AM 889 Views
The key is that government shouldn't be heavily involved in personal lives. Joel - 03/09/2009 05:58:39 AM 916 Views
Re: I don't think the mistrust of the government is really all that overblown Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 03:30:23 AM 823 Views
If I lived in France I wouldn't trust the Government either. Brian - 04/09/2009 03:44:55 AM 905 Views
*laughs* the point is taken. *NM* Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 04:24:07 AM 558 Views
Re: The US will never work with socialism. Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 03:28:24 AM 996 Views
How much more can we really tax the wealthy?? Brian - 03/09/2009 04:41:14 AM 826 Views
Sadly, I think going back to the Clinton rates would help Tom - 03/09/2009 04:42:54 AM 758 Views
I'm ok with that....not super excited....but ok with it Brian - 03/09/2009 04:57:32 AM 801 Views
A lot; before Reagans "reforms" we already taxed them less than any other industrialized state did. Joel - 03/09/2009 05:06:00 AM 904 Views
I'm in the lower-middle class tax bracket Brian - 03/09/2009 05:13:39 AM 831 Views
It's both, IMHO. Joel - 03/09/2009 05:29:41 AM 763 Views
I hear a lot of socialism coming from you..... trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 05:19:08 AM 786 Views
Re: I hear a lot of socialism coming from you..... Joel - 03/09/2009 05:40:32 AM 855 Views
Nice non-answer answer..... trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 05:52:04 AM 867 Views
You want detailed answers that require detailed data I don't have. Joel - 03/09/2009 06:06:55 AM 920 Views
Here are some facts and analyses..... trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 02:40:22 PM 1000 Views
The Heritage Foundation, huh? Joel - 03/09/2009 03:01:17 PM 997 Views
The non-working wealthy? Please quantify..... trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 03:31:58 PM 952 Views
So you accept the CBOs assessment the House healthcare bill will be $1 trillion over the next decade Joel - 04/09/2009 03:02:13 AM 849 Views
Wow, that was one of the dumbest posts I have ever read..... trzaska2000 - 05/09/2009 05:42:45 AM 894 Views
So you're saying you DON'T proofread...? Joel - 05/09/2009 05:59:49 AM 1006 Views
Paris Hilton? Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 03:43:19 AM 858 Views
You're so full of shit on this issue I don't know where to begin. Tom - 04/09/2009 03:15:55 AM 948 Views
Re: You're so full of shit on this issue I don't know where to begin. Joel - 04/09/2009 03:59:21 AM 1041 Views
Less than 200 people were said to be US persons with Swiss accounts Сталин - 04/09/2009 04:16:24 AM 845 Views
And yet account for many millions of dollars; what does that say...? Joel - 04/09/2009 04:21:57 AM 843 Views
It's statistically insignificant and your hyperbole is reminiscent of screaming guests on CNN. Сталин - 04/09/2009 02:07:31 PM 776 Views
Well, look at this way: Joel - 04/09/2009 02:24:03 PM 933 Views
That's not a solution. Сталин - 05/09/2009 02:39:12 AM 921 Views
The Soviets weren't socialist, or even communist, so it's a false comparison. Joel - 05/09/2009 03:09:06 AM 855 Views
Okay, now you've just gone into Kool-aid drinking territory. Сталин - 05/09/2009 04:32:07 AM 1003 Views
Communist THEORY is predicated on democratic participation at every level,totally absent in the USSR Joel - 05/09/2009 04:55:00 AM 1079 Views
FINALLY!!! Kylia Skydancer - 07/09/2009 10:22:53 AM 888 Views
Ever heard of the 20-80 rule? Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 04:28:54 AM 751 Views
Yes, and 90% of people are idiots. Сталин - 05/09/2009 02:41:35 AM 1096 Views
Re: Yes, and 90% of people are idiots. Kylia Skydancer - 07/09/2009 10:09:30 AM 886 Views
Top earners? Please define.....what income and how much more? *NM* trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 04:52:25 AM 556 Views
That would be open to definition, and should change with inflation. Joel - 03/09/2009 05:13:02 AM 1012 Views
What is your justification for taking over 50% of anyone's income? trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 05:28:22 AM 968 Views
That's a good example of why I say the rate has to be set to cost of living. Joel - 03/09/2009 05:50:16 AM 993 Views
Still no comment on the fact that 40% of Americans don't pay any income taxes? trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 02:32:12 PM 891 Views
To what 40% do you refer? Joel - 03/09/2009 02:42:55 PM 754 Views
Dude, you are not making this easy..... trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 03:38:01 PM 806 Views
No one "gets money from the IRS. " Joel - 04/09/2009 02:55:02 AM 808 Views
Actually with EIC you can get money back that you never paid in. Brian - 04/09/2009 02:56:43 AM 802 Views
It MIGHT be possible with the EIC, but in practice few people get more than they paid. Joel - 04/09/2009 03:43:36 AM 850 Views
I don't know, I've known plenty of people that have gotten more back than they paid in Brian - 04/09/2009 03:46:29 AM 938 Views
A neat trick then. Joel - 04/09/2009 04:09:58 AM 933 Views
To be fair Brian - 04/09/2009 04:50:20 AM 882 Views
Ah, gotcha. Joel - 04/09/2009 04:53:58 AM 875 Views
Yet another example of your ignorance on tax policy. Tom - 04/09/2009 03:19:39 AM 757 Views
The word I notice is "welfare" Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 03:57:01 AM 883 Views
I wouldn't say that's what it means.... Brian - 04/09/2009 04:02:40 AM 865 Views
It's what welfare means to me... Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 04:32:17 AM 879 Views
I was just talking about EIC as a form of welfare, not welfare welfare. *NM* Brian - 04/09/2009 04:45:13 AM 495 Views
yes, I get that now. *NM* Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 05:02:53 AM 478 Views
*NM* Brian - 04/09/2009 05:14:01 AM 474 Views
Not necessarily Сталин - 04/09/2009 04:11:41 AM 830 Views
*shrugs* I have a soft heart. *NM* Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 04:30:52 AM 477 Views
It's a credit for people who file a return on income that's been taxed. Joel - 04/09/2009 04:19:57 AM 796 Views
It is only for the WORKING poor, yes. Сталин - 04/09/2009 02:12:55 PM 800 Views
Mean it may be, but hardly illegal. Joel - 04/09/2009 02:31:16 PM 820 Views
How does the business benefit? Сталин - 04/09/2009 04:54:27 PM 835 Views
I didn't realize you meant literal withholding. Joel - 05/09/2009 03:03:32 AM 842 Views
That's a no-no, Joel AgentOrange - 03/09/2009 07:32:03 AM 806 Views
Europe impresses me for one simple reason: Joel - 03/09/2009 09:21:28 AM 855 Views
No real comments, just 100% agree with you....plus the $12 trillion is terrifying to me. *NM* Brian - 03/09/2009 04:33:39 AM 396 Views
If that scares you, check this out! trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 04:48:56 AM 961 Views
Excellent post - the US government is not capable of running HC..... trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 04:40:19 AM 754 Views
There is one thing the government did right Tom - 03/09/2009 04:41:36 AM 866 Views
The bailout, some of it, was necessary..... trzaska2000 - 03/09/2009 04:51:03 AM 862 Views
I still think it was too one sided. Joel - 03/09/2009 05:21:45 AM 887 Views
It depends on your level of cynicism nossy - 03/09/2009 05:38:53 AM 919 Views
when have they ever cut the fat? random thoughts - 03/09/2009 08:35:36 PM 856 Views
Contrary to popular belief, they are quite good at it nossy - 03/09/2009 09:05:15 PM 873 Views
Well there is only one catch *NM* random thoughts - 03/09/2009 10:56:00 PM 475 Views
This doesn't make sense to me. Tim - 03/09/2009 08:33:18 AM 868 Views
The key phrase is "should be. " Joel - 03/09/2009 09:38:15 AM 1025 Views
Re: The key phrase is "should be. " Lady Isa Avanderidhril - 03/09/2009 09:47:39 AM 895 Views
That sounds like a good stop gap to me. Joel - 03/09/2009 09:50:57 AM 919 Views
In fairness, most Europeans don't seem to realize what ObamaCare is. Legolas - 03/09/2009 02:34:01 PM 889 Views
What makes you think we do? nossy - 03/09/2009 09:11:06 PM 897 Views
Oh, you don't either. I thought that went without saying. *NM* Legolas - 03/09/2009 09:25:54 PM 499 Views
As far as most people I know are concerned, opposition to ObamaCare isn't the issue. Rebekah - 03/09/2009 11:04:36 PM 997 Views
It's hard not to be horrified with a government as wasteful as ours Brian - 03/09/2009 11:24:59 PM 756 Views
I can understand horror of governments. Rebekah - 03/09/2009 11:30:23 PM 766 Views
a bit, yes. *NM* Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 04:08:37 AM 498 Views
For Americans who don't understand why Canadians like their public healthcare. Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 04:23:11 AM 888 Views
Correction ßelals Girl - 04/09/2009 04:44:32 AM 881 Views
Re: Correction Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 05:05:11 AM 1011 Views
In all honesty.... Brian - 04/09/2009 05:18:23 AM 823 Views
Re: In all honesty.... Kylia Skydancer - 04/09/2009 07:19:28 AM 902 Views
Re: Correction ßelals Girl - 04/09/2009 05:24:49 PM 830 Views
Re: Correction Kylia Skydancer - 07/09/2009 10:11:45 AM 1031 Views
That's a nice theory. Joel - 04/09/2009 02:49:34 PM 928 Views
It's a fact ßelals Girl - 04/09/2009 05:21:59 PM 877 Views
Re: It's a fact Joel - 05/09/2009 03:18:39 AM 836 Views
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