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Economists have been arguing this for over 400 years. Roland00 Send a noteboard - 16/06/2020 08:22:57 PM

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Were workers paid the full value of their labor? No. It's stolen. I'm someone who's tired of America's national deity being Mammon.

What is the full value of their labor? Does a kid working at a drive-through fast food place deserve $15 an hour? Does a CEO working at a corporation deserve millions? Does a heart surgeon and a custodial worker deserve equal compensation for their labor?

It should be noted that if our national deity was actually Mammon, why would we actively give money to altruistic causes?

~Jeordam


Economists have been arguing this for over 400 years. It is an inherent moral philosophy question. It is also a metaphysical question. (What is labor, what is capital, is not a single thing everyone agrees upon, furthermore these economists are not even internally consistent with their own writings when you examine what they wrote in year X and them compare a decade later with X+10)

My answer is the William James answer. You can't end a metaphysical claim, with a metaphysical answer saying this is my obligation. Metaphysics can't defeat metaphysics.

Instead Metaphysics frees the mind, but metaphysics can also imprison the mind. Instead we must organize the mind via doing action, and thus metaphysics is solved via the casuistic answer.

(this is cryptic, just read the following wikipedia article, or Ursula K Le Guin The Ones Who Walk from OMELAS.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Philosopher_and_the_Moral_Life

(also remember though, casuistry can be sophistry so you have to see it as a trinity loop A=>B=>C and after C are A and B still being triggered.
Are you still outraged by the present, or did you find serenity that is true and not a false illusion.)

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I'm curious. - 08/06/2020 06:59:18 PM 1222 Views
I would expect so, yes. *NM* - 08/06/2020 08:00:59 PM 260 Views
That yes is for which question? Or is it for both? *NM* - 08/06/2020 08:23:06 PM 255 Views
The first one. Otherwise I'd have said no and yes. *NM* - 08/06/2020 09:19:48 PM 248 Views
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Except you don't. You really, REALLY want this disease to be worse than it is. - 12/06/2020 11:06:50 AM 525 Views
Sure. Anyone who disagrees with you wants mass poverty or mass death. No other possibility exists... - 12/06/2020 02:44:08 PM 512 Views
Fionwe same as other alt-left crazies - 16/06/2020 05:24:12 PM 550 Views
I dunno what's "alt" about it. We're the mainstream. Which must scare you - 16/06/2020 06:06:44 PM 469 Views
Dissonance - 16/06/2020 08:02:08 PM 468 Views
Do you think it's possible to disagree, even vehemently - 16/06/2020 08:14:50 PM 542 Views
I'm sure it is, in some conditions. - 16/06/2020 09:43:50 PM 536 Views
I am not a middle aged white man. I'm an old white man. - 16/06/2020 06:15:52 PM 525 Views
Evidence is not on your side, damook *NM* - 16/06/2020 07:27:39 PM 265 Views
Much like... - 16/06/2020 07:34:14 PM 553 Views
Statistically Insignificant - 16/06/2020 08:07:03 PM 477 Views
Stats don't tell the whole story. - 16/06/2020 08:06:17 PM 479 Views
You're right but on race? - 16/06/2020 08:08:40 PM 525 Views
Yes, you're right. - 16/06/2020 08:17:04 PM 468 Views
You realize that's not a contradiction, right? - 16/06/2020 09:49:56 PM 509 Views
A few points - 17/06/2020 09:29:15 PM 511 Views
I wasn't going to say it but... - 16/06/2020 08:17:57 PM 531 Views
Again: you really are a loathsome little ball of slime. - 10/06/2020 02:11:52 AM 481 Views
It's not my world, it's theirs. - 12/06/2020 11:13:14 AM 521 Views
Burning down corporate stores and taking their stolen wealth is a moral good. *NM* - 15/06/2020 12:04:52 AM 261 Views
Stolen Wealth? - 15/06/2020 04:50:59 PM 517 Views
How does one determine what is Original Sin? - 15/06/2020 05:17:37 PM 507 Views
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I'm uncertain if this is what Ghavrel meant, but I'd assume you don't need proof that slavery... - 15/06/2020 07:59:07 PM 487 Views
So we're talking about reparations....? - 15/06/2020 09:42:37 PM 517 Views
Why must money solve "all" issues? - 15/06/2020 11:32:05 PM 486 Views
So then money won't... - 16/06/2020 06:09:24 PM 511 Views
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Those aren't codified examples - 16/06/2020 07:31:49 PM 505 Views
Well that's some special nonsense - 16/06/2020 09:55:42 PM 508 Views
We're having a discussion...please try and not denigrate me. - 17/06/2020 05:26:36 PM 486 Views
But I didn't clearly state I want to denigrate you. You're inferring intent. How's that ok? - 17/06/2020 06:06:28 PM 493 Views
Pain and Death they *actively* choose... - 17/06/2020 06:39:13 PM 515 Views
They make no such choice. Which is why they're out there protesting - 17/06/2020 07:00:25 PM 544 Views
Sigh - 16/06/2020 08:15:12 PM 476 Views
Nah I just straight up think capitalism is evil. Reparations should be paid, though. *NM* - 16/06/2020 09:22:46 AM 242 Views
Fair enough. *NM* - 16/06/2020 02:54:11 PM 236 Views
aaah... - 16/06/2020 06:10:16 PM 493 Views
Re: Stolen Wealth? - 16/06/2020 09:21:32 AM 473 Views
Rather it should be The State? *NM* - 16/06/2020 12:10:59 PM 237 Views
What is "the State" - 16/06/2020 02:57:34 PM 479 Views
my comment was directed to Ghavrel. - 16/06/2020 04:49:39 PM 482 Views
You shouldn't make assumptions... - 16/06/2020 06:10:02 PM 484 Views
Lemme tell you about this cool thing called syndicalism... *NM* - 17/06/2020 06:46:38 AM 254 Views
There's a lot I like about that... *NM* - 17/06/2020 06:07:47 PM 221 Views
Syndicalisme révolutionnaire, peut-être? *NM* - 17/06/2020 06:29:00 PM 220 Views
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Bah *NM* - 18/06/2020 03:36:20 PM 217 Views
The only state with legitimacy is the Kingdom of Heaven. *NM* - 16/06/2020 08:57:26 PM 225 Views
Are we talking about the Mormon Sect? - 16/06/2020 09:06:14 PM 456 Views
My bad - 16/06/2020 10:20:14 PM 486 Views
In fairness, I usually talk policy goals as a social democrat. - 17/06/2020 12:34:45 AM 492 Views
They - 17/06/2020 06:29:35 PM 509 Views
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I go by she and her, but thank you. <3 *NM* - 18/06/2020 03:45:46 PM 251 Views
I try to be very sensitive to this. - 18/06/2020 03:55:01 PM 505 Views
Catholicism by itself is a Performance Arts Piece - 18/06/2020 01:17:45 AM 477 Views
A Catholic?! What?! I'm an Episcopalian. - 18/06/2020 03:45:24 PM 520 Views
No thanks. Not into non-democracies. *NM* - 17/06/2020 06:26:29 PM 233 Views
Ah a fellow Devil's Party Member. *NM* - 18/06/2020 01:13:37 AM 216 Views
That's the debate, isn't it. - 16/06/2020 06:16:10 PM 469 Views
Economists have been arguing this for over 400 years. - 16/06/2020 08:22:57 PM 478 Views
You could let the market determine that, I guess. - 16/06/2020 08:56:23 PM 471 Views
Because we do not live in Paradise. - 17/06/2020 05:36:58 PM 464 Views
Exactly. So the worker should own the means of production with other workers. - 17/06/2020 06:11:21 PM 475 Views
So my question then is.... - 17/06/2020 06:46:11 PM 517 Views
Sigh...I just can't not. - 18/06/2020 01:20:09 AM 430 Views
You know "talent" in the Bible is explictly referring to money, right? - 18/06/2020 03:43:11 PM 512 Views
Jesus also said it is easier for a camel to pass though a needle's eye... - 18/06/2020 03:49:43 PM 464 Views
This is true! - 18/06/2020 04:04:16 PM 519 Views
Thou shalt not steal. *NM* - 15/06/2020 11:10:34 PM 221 Views
Is a concern of mine - 08/06/2020 10:16:09 PM 515 Views
A natural experiment - 08/06/2020 10:42:34 PM 466 Views
Yes, we probably will. But demonstrators wearing masks are not normal life. - 09/06/2020 07:10:31 AM 511 Views
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Agreed. These aren't comparable situations. - 09/06/2020 06:09:27 PM 486 Views
Down South that is called Communism Mookie. - 09/06/2020 06:32:06 PM 466 Views
Alabama is down south, right? - 09/06/2020 10:08:15 PM 480 Views
We have all the same rules here in Seattle - 10/06/2020 07:45:59 PM 489 Views
I figured you - 09/06/2020 10:09:36 PM 479 Views
About your original question... - 17/06/2020 09:25:38 PM 501 Views
that is encouraging - 17/06/2020 09:44:10 PM 499 Views
Re: that is encouraging - 17/06/2020 10:10:34 PM 451 Views
Seems indoors with strangers is more a predictor than outdoor protests. - 27/06/2020 02:38:07 AM 576 Views
Tips, maybe? - 27/06/2020 05:10:30 AM 517 Views
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A 315 city study, BLM protests did not cause a spike in COVID cases. - 27/06/2020 10:19:05 PM 485 Views

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