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There's really one person responsible for this war - Vladimir Putin. Legolas Send a noteboard - 25/02/2022 06:30:39 PM

View original postROFLMAO. Yeah, we had nothing to do with the political situations and regime changes that resulted in the current difficulties with Russia. For instance, expanding NATO right up to the border of Russia, when the fall of the Soviet Union should have caused the automatic disbanding of the alliance. The whole point was that Russians were victims of the Soviet rule as well (which subjected Russians to rule by Georgian and Ukranian dictators, resulting in millions of dead Russians), that we were allied against that perfidious system of government, not Russia itself. Except the government went away and we started being friendly to governments that the Russian minorities in their countries might have had different opinions about. When Ukraine was Russian territory before English was ever spoken in the New World, you are going to have lots of Russians finding their way there. I'm pretty sure Mussorgsky, for example, didn't think he was composing music about the gate of a foreign capital.

I really get the impression sometimes that you - and to be fair, many other Americans - think the rest of the world isn't truly real, it's just a big stage for American foreign policy to shine on, or to fail on as the case may be. You can argue about the wisdom of the NATO expansion, but it's a bit absurd to act as if that was all because of American desires rather than, oh, I don't know, the countries in question being very eager to join themselves?

As I mentioned in the other thread (yes, TyrReborn, there is another thread, and it's not like there are so many threads on the board that it's easy to miss ), definitely the Russian speakers in the Baltics and Ukraine have not been treated as well as they should have been, so it's no surprise that Russia would have something to say about that.

But while the Russians themselves overwhelmingly supported Putin's recognition of the breakaway provinces Donetsk and Luhansk, and many people in the West probably figured that it might not be such a terrible thing for those territories to join Russia instead of Ukraine, this crazy war against Ukraine as a whole is an entirely different matter. It's hard to see much, if any, gain for Russia in this whole mess Putin is creating, while there will definitely be a whole lot of losses, so while his most hardcore supporters may go along for the ride, there's dozens of millions of Russians rethinking their views on Putin right about now... who will remember, when the sanctions start to bite, that there was really no need for any of this, even if they largely agreed with Putin's prior comments about the Russian speakers in Ukraine.

View original postSo while I too feel bad about what people in Ukraine are going through, I tend to give such expressions of sentiment a side-eye, because there is a definite campaign to sway the US popular opinion in favor of conflict with Russia over the issue. Not that I am remotely suggesting any such intention in your own statement, beyond the literal meaning of your words, especially in the context of the second sentence.

Putin chose to cross the Rubicon, leaving his international supporters in an awkward position - forced to either draw the line and say, you lost me there, but then look like fools for having been positive about him up until now, or follow him in his madness as apparently Trump is doing. That goes for individuals as well as countries - China's position is already being scrutinized and it'll be interesting to see how it evolves. As for 'conflict with Russia' - it's very clear nobody will step in to actually fight for Ukraine, that has been clear for a while now. To the extent that there will be non-military conflict with Russia, well, they could hardly have provoked that any more blatantly than they have, so it's pretty ludicrous to blame that on anyone else than Putin's regime.

This message last edited by Legolas on 25/02/2022 at 06:31:33 PM
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I feel for the people of Ukraine. TyrReborn - 25/02/2022 02:26:31 AM 408 Views
Re: I feel for the people of Ukraine. Cannoli - 25/02/2022 05:32:10 AM 175 Views
There's really one person responsible for this war - Vladimir Putin. Legolas - 25/02/2022 06:30:39 PM 150 Views
Bullshit. And don't pull this fucking condescension against Americans. Tom - 26/02/2022 12:47:08 AM 216 Views
There's a big difference between responsibility for this whole situation, or for the war itself. Legolas - 26/02/2022 12:14:10 PM 158 Views
Re: There's a big difference between responsibility for this whole situation, or for the war itself. Cannoli - 28/02/2022 01:50:30 PM 136 Views
Well, I agree that the Ukrainians aren't saints either - but they are the victims, now. Legolas - 28/02/2022 03:32:37 PM 151 Views
Re: Bullshit. And don't pull this fucking condescension against Americans. The Shrike - 01/03/2022 01:45:48 PM 142 Views
Greg, you're ignoring some key facts Tom - 01/03/2022 07:21:23 PM 148 Views
On point 3, you may be surprised to hear I largely agree with you. Legolas - 01/03/2022 08:07:52 PM 137 Views
Did Ukraine invade The Russia? No? Then yes, this invasion is Putin's fault. The Shrike - 01/03/2022 09:03:18 PM 133 Views
Lets be honest, Putin is more like Gul Dukat from DS9 Roland00 - 03/03/2022 09:35:43 PM 149 Views
Oh yeah, our leadership wants this war. TyrReborn - 26/02/2022 04:18:33 PM 126 Views
I feel for the people of Russia Dragonsoul - 02/03/2022 04:30:50 PM 147 Views
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