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There's a big difference between responsibility for this whole situation, or for the war itself. Legolas Send a noteboard - 26/02/2022 12:14:10 PM

From what I can tell, you merely skimmed my post before deciding to go off on your rant, which certainly taught me a bunch of details I didn't know, but contained very little to actually dispute my basic point.

Russia's strategic interest in keeping Ukraine outside of NATO, their discomfort with other Eastern European nations having already joined NATO, and their emotional connection to the Russian speakers in Ukraine or the Baltics whose linguistic and cultural rights aren't sufficiently respected, are all valid points. Which is why, throughout most of this crisis, Putin had not only broad support inside Russia, but also a fair bit of understanding or more explicit support outside it, even when he took the legally questionable step of recognizing the Donetsk and Luhansk republics.

But when he went on his ludicrous rant about Ukraine and then actually invaded it, not just bolstering the separatists in the east but a massive multi-pronged invasion focused on Kyiv, it became an entirely different story. Which, as I wrote in my previous post, left his supporters, domestic and especially international, with an awkward dilemma - in which I see you've chosen the 'double down on the insanity' option.

View original postThe US has kicked Russia around for 30 years. The triumphalist imperial attitude the US government displayed since 1991 is what pushed Russia to where it is. Putin is a kleptocratic autocrat and there are plenty of things to criticize about modern Russia, but this sure as hell isn't one person's fault.

The decision to actually declare war on this scale, as opposed to what he's been doing for the past twenty years which in case you didn't notice was often quite successful, was definitely one person's fault - or perhaps one person and a handful of his closest advisers. By all accounts, there's precious few people left in the Kremlin who actually influence Putin's decisions.


View original postAnd yes, the US did promise Russia in 1990 that NATO wouldn't expand eastward, even if it was never put on paper. And yet NATO expanded constantly, enveloping almost all of Russia's western neighbors. When Russia asked to join NATO it was refused because it was "too big and destabilizing" to NATO. But don't worry, because NATO is "solely defensive". Tell that to the Serbs.

You know what WAS put on paper? Russia's commitment to Ukraine's existence and territorial integrity - and, much later, to the Minsk agreements on how to resolve Ukraine's problems in the eastern provinces. Why did NATO expand eastward? Because the countries in question were afraid of Russia trying to conquer them, obviously. Which Putin has just proved them right on - he just tried telling Sweden and Finland not to join NATO, because even in his insanity, he realizes that his actions just now have ensured that every remaining neighbour of Russia who isn't already in NATO will now be desperate to join it, even if they weren't before.
View original postNo Russian government - Putin's or otherwise - can ignore the geopolitical realities of Russia. Russia has been invaded from the West countless times, and each time has led to massive loss of life. Whether it was the Poles, the Swedes, the French or the Germans (twice!), Russia learned a few things: (1) holding Crimea is vital to securing its southern flank, (2) holding the east bank of the Dniepr River is vital in the southern half, and (3) controlling the Suwalki corridor in the north is vital.

So do you actually expect anyone to believe that Russia figures Joe Biden, or any other American president, will try to become the next Napoleon and attempt to conquer Russia? Poland, the Baltics, the Caucasian and Central Asian republics, they've all been invaded and occupied BY Russia and if some of them want to join / have joined NATO, it's to be defended from Russia. Same goes for Ukraine although obviously that's a more complicated story with different parts of Ukraine having different degrees of historical affinity to Russia.
View original postThe first revolution, in 2004, started the disputes because it forced use of the Ukrainian language, a vulgar and coarse language of uneducated rednecks that people still laugh at (opening a phrasebook and seeing, "At the Hospital", the polite version of "I vomited" sounds, to the Russian ear, like "I done hurled", and the 1990s Russian Internet was dying with laughter over the instructions for Tampax in Ukrainian, which sounded like "chick doctors all agree Tampax are the best tampons to shove up your cootch" ). Now this base patois was the only official language, despite the fact that even now, most people outside the West of the country speak Russian.

Do you realize how ridiculous and childish you sound? As the saying goes, a language is a dialect with an army - with this kind of reasoning, Haiti should remain a French colony in perpetuity because Haitian creole is essentially simplified French, or the same with Afrikaans and Dutch. And while we're at it, we could start about how English is basically a bastardized, Frenchified version of a Germanic language so we should just hand the US and UK back to Germany for proper language training.
View original postThe Ukrainians stole natural gas from Russia, they blamed Russia for a "genocide of Ukrainians" in the 1932-33 Famine, even though it killed millions more in Southern Russia and 25% of the population of Kazakhstan (a demographic nightmare from which Kazakhstan never recovered). They blamed the Russians even though a Georgian ran the Soviet Union, and the policy was executed by 3 Ukrainians, 2 Latvians, a Pole and a Lithuanian in addition to 2 Russians (this is information I double checked from the Ukrainian government's own websites, by the way - thankfully the documents were in Russian).

Funnily enough, Russia wants all the credit for the achievements of the Soviet Union, as well as its great power perks like the Security Council seat and the nukes, yet none of the blame for its crimes. Though of course that kind of selective memory is a pretty universal sentiment among nationalists in any country and I've no doubt the Ukrainian nationalists are just as bad.
View original postI will say that he may exaggerate some of the immediate threat, but the long-term threat is there, and it is real enough that I think any other Russian government would act in a similar fashion. After seeing Biden's disgraceful exit from Afghanistan (I think most people were happy to get out, just not in such a half-assed way) and the way the guy mumbles through half-sentences and looks around confused, Putin realized this was his best opportunity. It was now or never. And yes, Zelensky at one point mused aloud that perhaps Ukraine should develop a nuclear weapon.

The shocked reactions from the Russian public and both Russian and foreign Kremlin analysts tell a very different story re: 'any other Russian government acting in a similar fashion'. His steps in the preceding weeks, yes, as I acknowledged above. This war, fuck no.
View original postBut the reality is that Russia tried to talk, tried to play by the US rules, and finally said "fuck you". And they don't care about the sanctions, and they'll live like an armed camp again like they did in the Soviet days if they have to, but at least the Europeans are fucking shitting their pants now because Russia stopped listening to America, because America honestly never offered Russia anything. It was, "Stop invading Georgia, and we'll talk." Putin stopped, and the US talked to Russia in vague terms for years and kept doing whatever the fuck it wanted to. Then it was "Stop killing the Ukrainian army in East Ukraine, and we'll talk." Again, lots of empty platitudes. Putin finally lost patience and said, "Are you going to give us any actual guarantees of security?" "Pull your troops back, and we'll talk" was the answer. No wonder he invaded. I would have in his place.

Well, going by some of what you wrote here, you seem to share some of his demented hatred of all things Ukrainian - but from what I can see, most Russians take a more reasonable view of the situation. And most Russians can see what apparently Putin and you can't: that this war will only leave Ukraine more antagonized, Russia more isolated and poorer, and the legitimate strategic goals of the Russian government further removed than before.
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I feel for the people of Ukraine. - 25/02/2022 02:26:31 AM 408 Views
Re: I feel for the people of Ukraine. - 25/02/2022 05:32:10 AM 175 Views
There's really one person responsible for this war - Vladimir Putin. - 25/02/2022 06:30:39 PM 150 Views
Bullshit. And don't pull this fucking condescension against Americans. - 26/02/2022 12:47:08 AM 216 Views
There's a big difference between responsibility for this whole situation, or for the war itself. - 26/02/2022 12:14:10 PM 159 Views
Re: Bullshit. And don't pull this fucking condescension against Americans. - 01/03/2022 01:45:48 PM 142 Views
Greg, you're ignoring some key facts - 01/03/2022 07:21:23 PM 148 Views
On point 3, you may be surprised to hear I largely agree with you. - 01/03/2022 08:07:52 PM 137 Views
Lets be honest, Putin is more like Gul Dukat from DS9 - 03/03/2022 09:35:43 PM 149 Views
Oh yeah, our leadership wants this war. - 26/02/2022 04:18:33 PM 126 Views
I feel for the people of Russia - 02/03/2022 04:30:50 PM 147 Views

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