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Re: There's a big difference between responsibility for this whole situation, or for the war itself. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 28/02/2022 01:50:30 PM


But when he went on his ludicrous rant about Ukraine and then actually invaded it, not just bolstering the separatists in the east but a massive multi-pronged invasion focused on Kyiv,

What's up with that spelling all of a sudden being pulled out of the internet's collective ass in 2022? All of a sudden it's being used by the same people hysterically comparing the current situation to the Munich Conference in 1938, which, if we're going to be using "Kyiv", should be "Munchen". In the state of Bayern, in the nation of Deutschland.
You know what WAS put on paper? Russia's commitment to Ukraine's existence and territorial integrity - and, much later, to the Minsk agreements on how to resolve Ukraine's problems in the eastern provinces. Why did NATO expand eastward? Because the countries in question were afraid of Russia trying to conquer them, obviously. Which Putin has just proved them right on

This is exactly the kind of circular logic always used to shift the blame for wars. The Warsaw Pact was allegedly formed due to Western aggression, too. Russia occupied and installed a puppet government in half of Germany, while allocating the territory of the primary state of unified Germany to Poland and annexing the remainder, so when the rump German state joined NATO, the USSR somehow saw this as threatening, instead of a defensive move by a country that had lost half of its territory to Russia. This was after WW2, where Russia invaded six countries in Eastern Europe and then asked literally, "What have we done to deserve this?" when Germany declared war on them.

That these current countries were afraid of Russian invasion does not make it likely.




So do you actually expect anyone to believe that Russia figures Joe Biden, or any other American president, will try to become the next Napoleon and attempt to conquer Russia? Poland, the Baltics, the Caucasian and Central Asian republics, they've all been invaded and occupied BY Russia and if some of them want to join / have joined NATO, it's to be defended from Russia.

Again, Central Asia invaded Russia first. Arguably, Russia came into being in response to Central Asian invasions. Germany invaded Russia and not even the most extreme anti-Soviet or Germanophile would claim that Konigsberg becoming Kaliningrad was not somewhat justified consequences of losing a war. Poland invaded Russia in the Middle Ages, Russia occupied & partitioned Poland in early modern times, Poland invaded Russia as almost its first act as a reemergent nation, and at the end of the Cold War more than any other communist country to bring down the USSR. Hungary, Romania, Finland & Bulgaria joined an alliance with Nazis to bring down Russia. If we're still allowed to be hysterical about fascism in countries with no history of it, or be tediously reminded of the Shoah in countries that not only did not participate in it, but ended it, why are Russia's security concerns of that time no longer relevant?


Same goes for Ukraine although obviously that's a more complicated story with different parts of Ukraine having different degrees of historical affinity to Russia.
Funny way of saying "Part of Russia since the Mongols."
Do you realize how ridiculous and childish you sound? As the saying goes, a language is a dialect with an army - with this kind of reasoning, Haiti should remain a French colony in perpetuity because Haitian creole is essentially simplified French, or the same with Afrikaans and Dutch. And while we're at it, we could start about how English is basically a bastardized, Frenchified version of a Germanic language so we should just hand the US and UK back to Germany for proper language training.

Except that's not the argument. The argument is that the government imposing that language is sketchy and has an agenda. The language is critiqued to call into question the motives of the government insisting on using it, as opposed to a much more widely-spoken tongue that is actually spoken outside of Ukranian enclaves. No one is saying Russia should get Ukraine because of the language, but if a Haitan government tried to forbid the use of proper French and imposed their creole as the language of government business or taught it in schools at the expense of French, the French community Haiti would be getting nervous, assuming any of them were not already massacred.

American and German is a particularly bad example to cite. You know there was a time in the US when speaking German could get you thrown in jail, when people with German names were changing them out of fear, which an Anglophile administration encouraged, because they were trying to drum up war fever to get us into WW1?



Funnily enough, Russia wants all the credit for the achievements of the Soviet Union,

Which are...?
as well as its great power perks like the Security Council seat and the nukes,

How are nukes a power perk of the USSR? The US, UK, France, Israel, Pakistan and India all have them, too. The Security Council seat had nothing to do with communism, everyone left of center insisted loudly and often during the Cold War, it was a natural position for one of the largest countries of the world, and they could not be excluded simply due to their being communist.
yet none of the blame for its crimes.

Because Russians were also victims of its crimes. They changed the government and everything, which was the whole point. Why should Russia accept the blame for the crimes of Stalin? It's like holding the US to account for the British crown.
Though of course that kind of selective memory is a pretty universal sentiment among nationalists in any country and I've no doubt the Ukrainian nationalists are just as bad.
"Ukranians are just as bad" is the basis of my whole position wrt the current conflict.

Well, going by some of what you wrote here, you seem to share some of his demented hatred of all things Ukrainian - but from what I can see, most Russians take a more reasonable view of the situation. And most Russians can see what apparently Putin and you can't: that this war will only leave Ukraine more antagonized, Russia more isolated and poorer, and the legitimate strategic goals of the Russian government further removed than before.

Hence why we should stay out of it. The bad guy is going to suffer, so, as Napoleon warned, never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Reply to message
I feel for the people of Ukraine. - 25/02/2022 02:26:31 AM 408 Views
Re: I feel for the people of Ukraine. - 25/02/2022 05:32:10 AM 175 Views
There's really one person responsible for this war - Vladimir Putin. - 25/02/2022 06:30:39 PM 149 Views
Bullshit. And don't pull this fucking condescension against Americans. - 26/02/2022 12:47:08 AM 216 Views
There's a big difference between responsibility for this whole situation, or for the war itself. - 26/02/2022 12:14:10 PM 158 Views
Re: There's a big difference between responsibility for this whole situation, or for the war itself. - 28/02/2022 01:50:30 PM 136 Views
Re: Bullshit. And don't pull this fucking condescension against Americans. - 01/03/2022 01:45:48 PM 142 Views
Greg, you're ignoring some key facts - 01/03/2022 07:21:23 PM 148 Views
On point 3, you may be surprised to hear I largely agree with you. - 01/03/2022 08:07:52 PM 137 Views
Lets be honest, Putin is more like Gul Dukat from DS9 - 03/03/2022 09:35:43 PM 149 Views
Oh yeah, our leadership wants this war. - 26/02/2022 04:18:33 PM 126 Views
I feel for the people of Russia - 02/03/2022 04:30:50 PM 147 Views

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