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Well, I agree that the Ukrainians aren't saints either - but they are the victims, now. Legolas Send a noteboard - 28/02/2022 03:32:37 PM

View original postWhat's up with that spelling all of a sudden being pulled out of the internet's collective ass in 2022? All of a sudden it's being used by the same people hysterically comparing the current situation to the Munich Conference in 1938, which, if we're going to be using "Kyiv", should be "Munchen". In the state of Bayern, in the nation of Deutschland.

I don't know, in my own language it's still called Kiev, but I mostly saw Kyiv in English language media recently, so I wrote that. I don't really care either way - and yes, would be in favour of writing München, as well, except that the American keyboard makes it a pain in the ass to type the ü.
View original postThis is exactly the kind of circular logic always used to shift the blame for wars. The Warsaw Pact was allegedly formed due to Western aggression, too. Russia occupied and installed a puppet government in half of Germany, while allocating the territory of the primary state of unified Germany to Poland and annexing the remainder, so when the rump German state joined NATO, the USSR somehow saw this as threatening, instead of a defensive move by a country that had lost half of its territory to Russia. This was after WW2, where Russia invaded six countries in Eastern Europe and then asked literally, "What have we done to deserve this?" when Germany declared war on them.

View original postThat these current countries were afraid of Russian invasion does not make it likely.

A lot more likely than the opposite though - and now, as unlikely as it always seemed, it actually has happened that Russia openly invaded a neighbour.
View original postAgain, Central Asia invaded Russia first. Arguably, Russia came into being in response to Central Asian invasions. Germany invaded Russia and not even the most extreme anti-Soviet or Germanophile would claim that Konigsberg becoming Kaliningrad was not somewhat justified consequences of losing a war. Poland invaded Russia in the Middle Ages, Russia occupied & partitioned Poland in early modern times, Poland invaded Russia as almost its first act as a reemergent nation, and at the end of the Cold War more than any other communist country to bring down the USSR. Hungary, Romania, Finland & Bulgaria joined an alliance with Nazis to bring down Russia. If we're still allowed to be hysterical about fascism in countries with no history of it, or be tediously reminded of the Shoah in countries that not only did not participate in it, but ended it, why are Russia's security concerns of that time no longer relevant?

Different parts of Central Asia and with a number of centuries inbetween, so that's a pretty big stretch, and I didn't even mention Germany. As for your last sentence - overblown rhetoric misusing the term 'fascism' or farfetched Holocaust analogies may be annoying but have little relevance for geopolitical strategy.
View original post Funny way of saying "Part of Russia since the Mongols."

As I said, different parts of Ukraine have belonged to Russia for longer or shorter periods, but none of them since the Mongols so you're just wrong entirely. Kiev since the 17th century, Odessa and many other parts of the country since the 18th, while Lviv and the western-most part have essentially never been Russian, only Soviet after WW2. Of course Kiev also played a key role in the Middle Ages as the birthplace of the Russian civilization, but that was before Muscovy-Russia even existed, and after the Mongols sacked Kiev, it lost most of its importance and became Lithuanian-Polish until the 17th century.
View original postExcept that's not the argument. The argument is that the government imposing that language is sketchy and has an agenda. The language is critiqued to call into question the motives of the government insisting on using it, as opposed to a much more widely-spoken tongue that is actually spoken outside of Ukranian enclaves. No one is saying Russia should get Ukraine because of the language, but if a Haitan government tried to forbid the use of proper French and imposed their creole as the language of government business or taught it in schools at the expense of French, the French community Haiti would be getting nervous, assuming any of them were not already massacred.

I'm not sure if the argument you're making is the same as Tom's, but anyhow, you're wrong on how much Ukrainian is spoken. Look it up: a majority of Ukrainians call Ukrainian their native tongue, or both Ukrainian and Russian. Many of those with Ukrainian as native tongue may speak as much or more Russian on a daily basis than they do Ukrainian, but still. For all that the extremists on the Ukrainian side may disparage Russian, and the extremists on the Russian side may act as if Ukrainian isn't even a real language but just some stupid dialect, the reality is that the majority of Ukrainians is bilingual and will use both depending on context.

So yes, when in 2014 the newly elected Ukrainian government took steps to undermine the legal status of Russian, that was completely moronic and they deserved the backlash they got, no argument from my side on that. But Putin's speech last week in which he basically denied that there is such a thing as an Ukrainian nation, at most a handful of fascist Ukrainians lording it over an essentially Russian nation, followed by the invasion with which he seems to expect to prove that point, is an entirely different category.

View original postAmerican and German is a particularly bad example to cite. You know there was a time in the US when speaking German could get you thrown in jail, when people with German names were changing them out of fear, which an Anglophile administration encouraged, because they were trying to drum up war fever to get us into WW1?

Yet only decades earlier, some parts of the US were essentially majority German-speaking... it's fascinating stuff, the linguistic history of the US. And to be clear, obviously that whole bit was facetious, meant to illustrate the absurdity of basing political judgements on one's esthetic appreciation for a language.


View original postFunnily enough, Russia wants all the credit for the achievements of the Soviet Union,


View original postWhich are...?

Have you listened to, or read about, any Putin speech ever? Their victory in WW2, obviously - and don't bother arguing about how much or little credit they deserve for that, it's not about whether I think that was an achievement, it's about what Putin thinks. Another obvious example would be their achievements in the space race, especially early on.
View original postHow are nukes a power perk of the USSR? The US, UK, France, Israel, Pakistan and India all have them, too. The Security Council seat had nothing to do with communism, everyone left of center insisted loudly and often during the Cold War, it was a natural position for one of the largest countries of the world, and they could not be excluded simply due to their being communist.

My point was, when the Soviet Union dissolved, Russia essentially acted as its successor state, keeping all of its nukes - Ukraine initially had some but gave them up, which was when Russia made that commitment to Ukraine's territorial integrity - as well as the Security Council seat and all sorts of other stuff like, say, the Soviet Union's sports records to take a less controversial example.
View original postBecause Russians were also victims of its crimes. They changed the government and everything, which was the whole point. Why should Russia accept the blame for the crimes of Stalin? It's like holding the US to account for the British crown.

As I said, this is a favourite activity of nationalists everywhere, and it's bullshit everywhere. Either you identify with what your country has done in previous decades/centuries, both the good and the bad, or you don't, but reveling in its past glories while acting as if you couldn't possibly have anything to do with its crimes, that's just sad. And if Russian nationalists want to identify with Russia but not the Soviet Union, okay, fine, but then be consistent about it.
View original post"Ukranians are just as bad" is the basis of my whole position wrt the current conflict.

And it was a perfectly fair position - up until the moment that one side actually declared war and invaded, which was utterly and completely uncalled for, as most others including most Russians can see. Which, besides many other bad things, is also going to make the Ukrainians look like heroes and innocent victims, which actually annoys me as well - in fact, there's suddenly even talk of Ukraine suddenly jumping the queue for an 'emergency membership application' to the EU, ahead of the existing membership candidates who already have made considerably more progress in terms of rooting out corruption, ensuring human rights are respected everywhere, and so on.

I'm really not honestly sure if Putin had any rational goals that he could have rationally expected to achieve from this crazy invasion, but most definitely he is pushing Ukraine into Europe's arms and away from Russia, not the other way around.



View original postHence why we should stay out of it. The bad guy is going to suffer, so, as Napoleon warned, never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

We will stay out of it, militarily. But that doesn't mean we have to stand back and let it happen, encouraging Putin to try more of that in the future.
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I feel for the people of Ukraine. - 25/02/2022 02:26:31 AM 407 Views
Re: I feel for the people of Ukraine. - 25/02/2022 05:32:10 AM 175 Views
There's really one person responsible for this war - Vladimir Putin. - 25/02/2022 06:30:39 PM 149 Views
Bullshit. And don't pull this fucking condescension against Americans. - 26/02/2022 12:47:08 AM 215 Views
There's a big difference between responsibility for this whole situation, or for the war itself. - 26/02/2022 12:14:10 PM 158 Views
Re: There's a big difference between responsibility for this whole situation, or for the war itself. - 28/02/2022 01:50:30 PM 135 Views
Well, I agree that the Ukrainians aren't saints either - but they are the victims, now. - 28/02/2022 03:32:37 PM 151 Views
Re: Bullshit. And don't pull this fucking condescension against Americans. - 01/03/2022 01:45:48 PM 141 Views
Greg, you're ignoring some key facts - 01/03/2022 07:21:23 PM 148 Views
On point 3, you may be surprised to hear I largely agree with you. - 01/03/2022 08:07:52 PM 137 Views
Lets be honest, Putin is more like Gul Dukat from DS9 - 03/03/2022 09:35:43 PM 148 Views
Oh yeah, our leadership wants this war. - 26/02/2022 04:18:33 PM 126 Views
I feel for the people of Russia - 02/03/2022 04:30:50 PM 147 Views

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