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Okay so about the big bad guy *spoilers* Sidious Send a noteboard - 05/01/2016 06:27:37 PM

The current internet opinion is that Snoke is Darth Plagueis.

Initially I scoffed at this idea. I've read the book "Darth Plagueis" and it's a detailed account of his life and how he trained Darth Sidious. Sidious eventually got him drunk and then tortured him to death before declaring himself the Sith Lord.

So why do people think that Snoke might be Plagueis?

  1. It's difficult to introduce an external new character to the series who will be taken seriously and on the same level of great Sith Lords, who trained through an elite system that passed their knowledge of the dark side down for millenia, and personally spent all their time training one person to be as powerful as possible. We saw this power in the form of Maul, Dooku, Vader and finally Palpatine. It's not likely that in the 30 years since the Battle of Endor that some random person could become as knowledgeable, skilled and powerful as Sidious, Bane or others. The writers have to introduce someone very great indeed which is why SW fans initially thought that Snoke would have to be Sidious or Plagueis reborn.

  2. There is a specific musical score that is played when Palpatine tells young Anakin about Darth Plagueis the wise in Episode 3. This score is never played again in any of the six movies but is played in Episode 7 whenever Snoke is present.

  3. This concept art for the new movies (http://i.imgur.com/nzEt0s0.jpg) shows a dark jedi who resembles Plagueis. Plagueis was severely injured by an assassination attempt and had to wear a respirator for the rest of his life. It has been suggested that the girl is Rey and that the man on the ground is Luke or Ren. This is concept art, so not very accurate, and while some people believe this is evidence of Plagueis, others have stated that this was merely the original drawing of Kylo Ren. Snoke has no respirator but he is holographic and he may be in some sort of chamber similar to Vader's that allowed him to be function without assistance.

  4. This spanish magazine that detailed the characters of the movie (http://i.imgur.com/7FYl4hw.jpg) shows Snoke. He does not resemble the Snoke in the movie but is very similar in appearance to the original Plagueis. Even if you can't read Spanish you can see that he is played by Serkis, as we know Snoke is. Snoke is clearly a Muun in this picture.

  5. Plagueis was a Muun and they were about 8 feet tall and lived for at least a hundred years. Therefore it is possible that Plagueis has been alive since he trained young Sidious. Plagueis was born at most 147 years before the battle of Yavin making him about 170-180 years old if he is in his original body. Serkis has been shown to be wearing extensions and other digital items implying that although Snoke is humanoid, he has longer limbs and may well be Muun.

  6. Snoke has a major gash in his face as well as other deformities/injuries around his mouth. Sidious tortured him to death with Force lightning and this is considered to perhaps be scarring.

  7. Plagueis was the first (and last) Sith to openly state that he does not support the rule of two and that he wanted the Sith to grow. This is why he allowed Sidious to train Maul, though Sidious had other plans (in truth it is revealed that Sidious never considered Maul strong enough to ever ascend but this is another issue). More importantly, it is why Snoke has allowed the Knights of Ren to form. They are all clearly force adepts, although weakly but he is definitely a proponent of a dark side army to rival the Jedi. Snoke also talks like a Sith implying that the rise of the Jedi is a major threat to them - very very similar to Sidious and his conversations with Vader.

  8. Plagueis is the only Sith Lord in known history who could control the midichlorians. He killed and resurrected another Sith apprentice (Venemis) several times to practice his abilities. He did many experiments on living things. Sidious slyly alluded to the fact that Plagueis was scared of his own death, and he couldn't save himself despite his powers. However, perhaps he could, and did.

Okay so what is the popular theory out there?

Many people believe that Plagueis was killed by Sidious, or he was not.

In the event that he was killed, he used his dark powers to resurrect himself at a later stage. Plagueis knew that Sidious was a Sith of significant power and ultimately if he faced him again, he would lose and Sidious would eventually use the Force to destroy him permanently. He recognized that Sidious exceeded him in power. He therefore decided to let Sidious build the Empire until he was killed. We know that Plagueis foresaw the fall of Sidious when he heard about Anakin Skywalker, and Plagueis panicked and asked whether the discovery could have ruined the Sith. He said "Are we undone?" to Sidious. He foresaw Sidious' demise at the hand of a man with Vader's mask. He knew Sidious would die - he'd bide his time and then resume the leadership again. Naturally he pounced on the descendant of the chosen one.

Alternatively Plagueis did not die. Plagueis was one of the greatest Sith who ever lived regarding illusion. Sidious himself admitted that he could be held at the mercy of Plagueis' illusions and couldn't tell if they were real or not. Plagueis therefore could have projected that he was dead, but was alive. Sidious left then Plagueis recovered - severely injured by the Force lightning and permanently scarred. He then went underground for decades.

There are other subtle alternatives to these theories. Many believe that he could control his midichlorians absolutely and existed as a spirit until Sidious died, and then he infused himself into a corpse or other creature to become Snoke.

Another very eccentric theory is that Plagueis foresaw his death and transferred the majority of his midichlorians and actually created Skywalker. Remember Anakin was created immaculately. Plagueis actually did try to create life at one stage with Sidious, and the Force rebounded and all his experimental creatures became diseased. He believed the Force would resist this most unnatural act. However, without Sidious' knowledge he got it right (we don't know) with the midichlorians and didn't really resist his murder in his now weakened state. When Vader died the midichlorians were released and moved along back to the vessel chosen by Snoke.

All of these theories are very impressive and very convoluted. The implications are really massive - that someone was clever enough to use even Sidious as a pawn in a scheme that took at least 50 years to come to fruition. The villain of the new trilogy would then be someone truly memorable.

There are detailed Youtube videos to extrapolate all these points.

Thoughts?

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
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Star Wars : The Force Awakens review (spoiler free) - 17/12/2015 09:18:26 AM 2067 Views
Love your review! I'm seeing it tomorrow night at 9pm. Can't wait! *NM* - 18/12/2015 01:20:16 AM 654 Views
Some (relatively spoiler free) thoughts - 18/12/2015 12:27:22 PM 1126 Views
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Agreed, Driver did a great job..... - 19/12/2015 05:46:44 AM 931 Views
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Re: Replies and spoilers - 21/12/2015 06:31:54 PM 1242 Views
The books... - 21/12/2015 09:05:28 PM 986 Views
Re: The books... - 22/12/2015 03:12:52 AM 931 Views
In general agreement ** potential Spoilers ** - 19/12/2015 06:06:23 AM 892 Views
There are books? - 19/12/2015 11:19:07 AM 952 Views
Re: There are books? - 19/12/2015 05:41:45 PM 1006 Views
So Darth Plagieus might still be in? Sweet. - 20/12/2015 04:44:21 AM 869 Views
Palpatine's master? - 20/12/2015 02:25:45 PM 866 Views
I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 09:47:16 PM 901 Views
Re: I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 10:05:49 PM 987 Views
Yeah, I think we're talking about the same one. - 24/12/2015 12:05:57 AM 876 Views
Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens - 19/12/2015 06:07:16 PM 969 Views
I don't think any of that had to be explained. - 19/12/2015 12:16:07 PM 859 Views
I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 19/12/2015 08:22:21 PM 977 Views
Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 06:04:43 AM 1039 Views
Re: Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 08:06:40 PM 841 Views
Re: I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 20/12/2015 10:07:36 AM 947 Views
Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:00:32 PM 1107 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:11:30 PM 987 Views
You're making me reply to two posts - 18/12/2015 03:29:23 PM 978 Views
The death (spoilers) - 22/12/2015 10:30:05 PM 932 Views
Re: You're making me reply to two posts - 29/12/2015 05:24:39 AM 967 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 29/12/2015 05:19:54 AM 910 Views
I have tickets for tonight - 18/12/2015 04:47:17 PM 946 Views
Arbrams impressed me(spoiler free) - 19/12/2015 05:17:42 AM 1043 Views
'Revenge of the Sith' (3rd prequel) was actually a decent movie - 18/12/2015 10:46:52 PM 967 Views
They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 18/12/2015 11:38:36 PM 919 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 12:19:10 AM 1027 Views
Well - 19/12/2015 05:53:56 AM 868 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 07:46:06 AM 1079 Views
people forget they were kids movies *NM* - 19/12/2015 01:17:10 AM 636 Views
Yeah, people take the whole 'Star Wars' thing too seriously - 19/12/2015 02:59:29 AM 981 Views
BTW, Daniel Craig is totally forgiven for Spectre. He was a Stormtrooper (spoilers for role) - 18/12/2015 11:40:44 PM 877 Views
Yip that's true *NM* - 19/12/2015 07:46:59 AM 613 Views
And Simon Pegg was the alien who ran the trading post Rey always went to *NM* - 20/12/2015 02:30:59 PM 715 Views
I got the impression he was actually her boss or contractor - 28/12/2015 12:48:48 PM 1027 Views
Pretty much... - 29/12/2015 12:08:58 AM 934 Views
Absolutely, yes *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:54:52 PM 670 Views
Just saw it! Holy shit, shit, shit, shit.....it was amazing. - 19/12/2015 05:38:44 AM 932 Views
Loved it (Spoilers) - 19/12/2015 06:16:54 AM 883 Views
Fantastic characters, great entertainment, no originality, no logic - 29/12/2015 03:33:43 AM 921 Views
Your Mom has no originality or logic! *NM* - 29/12/2015 11:39:41 AM 662 Views
JJ Abrams should be able to do better than my Mom - 30/12/2015 04:20:54 AM 848 Views
I gave it a B+ overall but I think the characters are its weak spot - 29/12/2015 05:08:15 PM 784 Views
JJ Abrams' movies are character-driven, Lucas' movies are plot-driven - 30/12/2015 04:38:49 AM 833 Views
Lucas has created some of the most iconics chacters in movie history ? - 31/12/2015 02:29:02 PM 855 Views
So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 10:11:01 AM 931 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 07:10:56 PM 1261 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 09:24:08 PM 890 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 31/12/2015 04:58:24 PM 847 Views
It was fun, and I look forward to the next ones, but can't say I was that wowed. - 30/12/2015 09:26:10 PM 876 Views
Why is time for female lead and why does the lef think subtraction is the answer to inequality? - 04/01/2016 01:37:37 PM 719 Views
Because the six other movies had zero female Jedis of any importance? - 04/01/2016 05:58:25 PM 940 Views
Just another check the box movie, then - 04/01/2016 06:02:41 PM 816 Views
Oh, come on. You're really going to complain just because they had a woman and a black guy? - 04/01/2016 11:48:52 PM 891 Views
They are talking abou tmakin ght Gunslinger black - 05/01/2016 02:05:36 PM 852 Views
Yeah, Star Wars is just part of the larger trend. It can't be viewed in a vacuum (pun intended). - 05/01/2016 02:38:34 PM 813 Views
That's not really what I said, you'll note. - 05/01/2016 07:48:08 PM 1018 Views
I don't think it was Disney's business acumen. - 06/01/2016 06:59:46 PM 1086 Views
Wow. That's... sad. - 06/01/2016 09:32:37 PM 938 Views
Re: Wow. That's... sad. - 08/01/2016 03:08:58 AM 923 Views
I am noit sure how well that 7-12 girl demographic will work in merchandising - 08/01/2016 06:30:47 PM 916 Views
Your premise is entirely wrong. - 12/01/2016 05:53:26 AM 848 Views
Actually, they do have a major character who is Latino. - 12/01/2016 07:15:31 PM 867 Views
The culture wars are just about blacks and feminists. - 13/01/2016 02:31:20 AM 900 Views
All that Paul said - 17/01/2016 05:13:59 PM 1488 Views
LOL - 05/01/2016 06:33:50 PM 856 Views
Funny that people use strwmen arguments to make themsleves feel smart - 08/01/2016 04:22:22 PM 929 Views
It's not a straw man - 08/01/2016 04:52:03 PM 901 Views
it was story of a father and son so it makes sense to male leads - 04/01/2016 06:59:33 PM 772 Views
Male leads, sure, but it wasn't just the leads. - 04/01/2016 11:28:12 PM 910 Views
Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 05/01/2016 05:55:51 PM 883 Views
I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM 879 Views
Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 02:52:58 PM 860 Views
Re: Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 05:50:08 PM 877 Views
I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 02:49:44 PM 864 Views
Re: I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 03:26:34 PM 906 Views
The reall issue it looks like Luke sucked as Jedi master - 07/01/2016 07:14:31 PM 842 Views
Sorry, no. - 06/01/2016 06:56:09 PM 919 Views
What a load of crap. - 08/01/2016 10:29:35 AM 828 Views
I only partially agree - 08/01/2016 03:27:10 PM 876 Views
Sorry if science isn't your thing but no what I said is true - 09/01/2016 11:49:15 PM 995 Views
Re: Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 08/01/2016 10:01:16 AM 791 Views
Well said *NM* - 05/01/2016 12:01:25 PM 676 Views
Because it isn't "subtraction"... - 08/01/2016 09:33:24 AM 848 Views
Of course it is - 09/01/2016 10:19:53 PM 819 Views
Okay so about the big bad guy *spoilers* - 05/01/2016 06:27:37 PM 907 Views
I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:07:26 PM 908 Views
Re: I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:42:42 PM 830 Views
What speaks against is for me... - 05/01/2016 10:57:44 PM 1243 Views
Re: What speaks against is for me... - 06/01/2016 10:08:35 AM 976 Views
It's all good stuff, like the first book in a good sci-fi/fantasy trilogy! - 07/01/2016 06:44:45 AM 951 Views
I think it's pretty obvious... - 17/01/2016 07:43:19 AM 944 Views

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