Active Users:514 Time:25/04/2024 10:53:50 PM
All that Paul said DomA Send a noteboard - 17/01/2016 05:13:59 PM

.. and you don't seem aware that Disney's so-called "liberal agenda" was a corporate decision going back to the decade when Disney was in sharp decline and more and more criticized abroad for being too much a mirror of American conservative social values. It had let itself get distanced by the social changes that were progressing slower in the USA, and abroad it stopped being seen, as it was in the days when the rest of the west was still also more conservative culturally, as the "safe and reliable" company in which hands you could place your children blindly. More and more parents were questioning the cultural values Disney products passed to their children, which were at odds with theirs. They used to be all over the place on TV in the 70s-80s, now they had more and more problems selling their shows outside the US, their theme parks were doing more and more badly.

It's when Disney adjusted, modernized the way they represented women, opened up to other cultures and eliminated the stereotypes more and more, in the hopes of regaining their foreign markets, and more liberal America that was also slipping away from them. They made a pretty fantastic recovery, and though they're still criticized the stigma that Disney had turned into a conservatgive brainwashing machine is gone (these days they are more criticized for their invasive merchandises).

Of course, this is balanced out by criticism from the US conservatives now, but that's largely and in fact almost uniquely a US phenomenon. Like I said we haven't seen much discussion of Disney being PC with TFA, and when we did it was usually to bring up the criticisms it sparked in the US.

The other point is that Disney gets a lot of grief for being PC with the new SW, but this conveniently ignores the fact that this is hardly new for the SW franchise and it goes all the way back to the first movie. Lucas wanted a more international cast for ANH, but he did not manage to get it. It wasn't easy to get foreign actors who could play well in American English back then and even less to find some in the pool of "super-white" Hollywood which had little diversity to offer for cheap. He first offered the role of Obi-Wan to Toshiro Mifune, who turned it down. He considered making one of the heroes Black (Solo), Asian (Leia) or alien (Solo again), and in the end it didn't work out. He tried to remedy that in the second movie, but again ran into logistic problems (hard to cast Asian or Black extras for the rebels in Northern Europe...) - but he had Lando Calrissian, for whom, if you'll recall, he got much grief because the black guy initially betrayed his friends, and in the third movie, redeeened, wasn't "upgraded" enough to a main role. Lucas also tried to show some diversity with extras on Cloud City, as he could more easily cast the extras for that (in England).

While Star Wars was heavily inspired by Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon - in essence pretty sexist and even exploitative, Lucas always intended the turn the female character stereotypes from these space opera on their heads with Leia. He wanted her to be the brains, and the leader and an action hero too, and to make fun of the whole Disney princesses and damsels in distress tropes. Rey is merely a step further, becoming the central protagonist this time, but it's something Lucas started in '77 long before it was fashionable to do that - and this was saluted as groundbreaking then (before causing disappointment with ESB and ROTJ as Leia had created expectations that were not fully met).

As for the Empire, it was intentional that they would be an all human, an all white (and British) entity in opposition to a population of diverse humans and aliens which they oppressed and enslaved. Some saw that as making a not too subtle political point, and Lucas didn't deny this, but pointed out he it was background stuff, not a political agenda as such. He had based, and willingly said so back in the day, the Empire in part on the Nixon era Republican party, in part on corporate Hollywood, and for the imagery on the Third Reich. How the Republic fell to the Emperor who manipulated the corrupted politicians and the greed of the commercial empires and turned the people who had grown complacent with democracy and lost interest in the common good against the Jedi was all there in the novelization of the first movie (and even more explicitely in that of ROTJ). SW always had a subtle anti-Republican and progressive message, reflecting Lucas's own values.

For the prequels Lucas went further, casting internationally now that he could afford it. Naboo had plenty of human races, so did Tatooine and Coruscant. Boba Fett was played by a Maori, the second Queen on Naboo was Indian. If anything, the new movie is a step back, with less diversity in both humans and aliens, though this time around they have more central roles.

That's for the SW tradition. Then we come to JJ Abrams, who's another who has a long track record of loving to have non-White, non-American characters (and even many non English speaking ones...), and also loving to get away from stereotypes for his female characters, often turning them into pretty physical heroes but not only that... he just made them as diversified and as important as his male characters. One only has to think of Alias, with two out of three of the initial main players being female, one of them black - and plenty of diversity with the other players. Then there's Lost, of course. An agenda, or just how Abrams likes things to be in his storytelling?

So between the long SW tradition and JJ Abrams's love for having a diverse cast of characters often centred on a female lead, it's pretty reductive and quite possibly completely wrong to blame Disney's "political correctness" for the fact Abrams decided to cast a woman, a black man and a latino as his main characters. In 2015 this should hardly ruffle any feathers anyway, which by and large it didn't, except a bit with conservatives in the US.

Reply to message
Star Wars : The Force Awakens review (spoiler free) - 17/12/2015 09:18:26 AM 2079 Views
Love your review! I'm seeing it tomorrow night at 9pm. Can't wait! *NM* - 18/12/2015 01:20:16 AM 659 Views
Some (relatively spoiler free) thoughts - 18/12/2015 12:27:22 PM 1138 Views
I pretty much agree with most of that. - 18/12/2015 01:05:16 PM 1093 Views
Agreed, Driver did a great job..... - 19/12/2015 05:46:44 AM 944 Views
Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 03:04:37 PM 1026 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 04:35:49 PM 869 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 05:51:29 PM 905 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 04:44:36 AM 925 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 07:37:39 PM 924 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 19/12/2015 05:30:13 PM 945 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 20/12/2015 09:51:22 AM 1092 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 21/12/2015 06:31:54 PM 1255 Views
The books... - 21/12/2015 09:05:28 PM 1001 Views
Re: The books... - 22/12/2015 03:12:52 AM 945 Views
In general agreement ** potential Spoilers ** - 19/12/2015 06:06:23 AM 904 Views
There are books? - 19/12/2015 11:19:07 AM 964 Views
Re: There are books? - 19/12/2015 05:41:45 PM 1019 Views
So Darth Plagieus might still be in? Sweet. - 20/12/2015 04:44:21 AM 881 Views
Palpatine's master? - 20/12/2015 02:25:45 PM 881 Views
I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 09:47:16 PM 914 Views
Re: I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 10:05:49 PM 998 Views
Yeah, I think we're talking about the same one. - 24/12/2015 12:05:57 AM 891 Views
Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens - 19/12/2015 06:07:16 PM 978 Views
I don't think any of that had to be explained. - 19/12/2015 12:16:07 PM 873 Views
I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 19/12/2015 08:22:21 PM 986 Views
Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 06:04:43 AM 1053 Views
Re: Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 08:06:40 PM 855 Views
Re: I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 20/12/2015 10:07:36 AM 959 Views
Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:00:32 PM 1115 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:11:30 PM 999 Views
You're making me reply to two posts - 18/12/2015 03:29:23 PM 991 Views
The death (spoilers) - 22/12/2015 10:30:05 PM 946 Views
Re: You're making me reply to two posts - 29/12/2015 05:24:39 AM 986 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 29/12/2015 05:19:54 AM 928 Views
I have tickets for tonight - 18/12/2015 04:47:17 PM 956 Views
Arbrams impressed me(spoiler free) - 19/12/2015 05:17:42 AM 1053 Views
'Revenge of the Sith' (3rd prequel) was actually a decent movie - 18/12/2015 10:46:52 PM 979 Views
They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 18/12/2015 11:38:36 PM 932 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 12:19:10 AM 1039 Views
Well - 19/12/2015 05:53:56 AM 882 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 07:46:06 AM 1090 Views
people forget they were kids movies *NM* - 19/12/2015 01:17:10 AM 641 Views
Yeah, people take the whole 'Star Wars' thing too seriously - 19/12/2015 02:59:29 AM 995 Views
BTW, Daniel Craig is totally forgiven for Spectre. He was a Stormtrooper (spoilers for role) - 18/12/2015 11:40:44 PM 889 Views
Yip that's true *NM* - 19/12/2015 07:46:59 AM 618 Views
And Simon Pegg was the alien who ran the trading post Rey always went to *NM* - 20/12/2015 02:30:59 PM 720 Views
I got the impression he was actually her boss or contractor - 28/12/2015 12:48:48 PM 1043 Views
Pretty much... - 29/12/2015 12:08:58 AM 943 Views
Absolutely, yes *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:54:52 PM 674 Views
Just saw it! Holy shit, shit, shit, shit.....it was amazing. - 19/12/2015 05:38:44 AM 945 Views
Loved it (Spoilers) - 19/12/2015 06:16:54 AM 897 Views
Fantastic characters, great entertainment, no originality, no logic - 29/12/2015 03:33:43 AM 934 Views
Your Mom has no originality or logic! *NM* - 29/12/2015 11:39:41 AM 666 Views
JJ Abrams should be able to do better than my Mom - 30/12/2015 04:20:54 AM 862 Views
I gave it a B+ overall but I think the characters are its weak spot - 29/12/2015 05:08:15 PM 793 Views
JJ Abrams' movies are character-driven, Lucas' movies are plot-driven - 30/12/2015 04:38:49 AM 849 Views
Lucas has created some of the most iconics chacters in movie history ? - 31/12/2015 02:29:02 PM 863 Views
So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 10:11:01 AM 942 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 07:10:56 PM 1273 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 09:24:08 PM 904 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 31/12/2015 04:58:24 PM 857 Views
It was fun, and I look forward to the next ones, but can't say I was that wowed. - 30/12/2015 09:26:10 PM 887 Views
Why is time for female lead and why does the lef think subtraction is the answer to inequality? - 04/01/2016 01:37:37 PM 728 Views
Because the six other movies had zero female Jedis of any importance? - 04/01/2016 05:58:25 PM 951 Views
Just another check the box movie, then - 04/01/2016 06:02:41 PM 826 Views
Oh, come on. You're really going to complain just because they had a woman and a black guy? - 04/01/2016 11:48:52 PM 910 Views
They are talking abou tmakin ght Gunslinger black - 05/01/2016 02:05:36 PM 862 Views
Yeah, Star Wars is just part of the larger trend. It can't be viewed in a vacuum (pun intended). - 05/01/2016 02:38:34 PM 824 Views
That's not really what I said, you'll note. - 05/01/2016 07:48:08 PM 1032 Views
I don't think it was Disney's business acumen. - 06/01/2016 06:59:46 PM 1100 Views
Wow. That's... sad. - 06/01/2016 09:32:37 PM 951 Views
Re: Wow. That's... sad. - 08/01/2016 03:08:58 AM 933 Views
I am noit sure how well that 7-12 girl demographic will work in merchandising - 08/01/2016 06:30:47 PM 927 Views
Your premise is entirely wrong. - 12/01/2016 05:53:26 AM 861 Views
Actually, they do have a major character who is Latino. - 12/01/2016 07:15:31 PM 881 Views
The culture wars are just about blacks and feminists. - 13/01/2016 02:31:20 AM 909 Views
All that Paul said - 17/01/2016 05:13:59 PM 1507 Views
LOL - 05/01/2016 06:33:50 PM 867 Views
Funny that people use strwmen arguments to make themsleves feel smart - 08/01/2016 04:22:22 PM 941 Views
It's not a straw man - 08/01/2016 04:52:03 PM 911 Views
it was story of a father and son so it makes sense to male leads - 04/01/2016 06:59:33 PM 781 Views
Male leads, sure, but it wasn't just the leads. - 04/01/2016 11:28:12 PM 921 Views
Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 05/01/2016 05:55:51 PM 893 Views
I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM 891 Views
Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 02:52:58 PM 874 Views
Re: Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 05:50:08 PM 887 Views
I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 02:49:44 PM 875 Views
Re: I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 03:26:34 PM 922 Views
The reall issue it looks like Luke sucked as Jedi master - 07/01/2016 07:14:31 PM 852 Views
Sorry, no. - 06/01/2016 06:56:09 PM 931 Views
What a load of crap. - 08/01/2016 10:29:35 AM 845 Views
I only partially agree - 08/01/2016 03:27:10 PM 889 Views
Sorry if science isn't your thing but no what I said is true - 09/01/2016 11:49:15 PM 1005 Views
Re: Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 08/01/2016 10:01:16 AM 807 Views
Well said *NM* - 05/01/2016 12:01:25 PM 681 Views
Because it isn't "subtraction"... - 08/01/2016 09:33:24 AM 864 Views
Of course it is - 09/01/2016 10:19:53 PM 828 Views
Okay so about the big bad guy *spoilers* - 05/01/2016 06:27:37 PM 918 Views
I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:07:26 PM 920 Views
Re: I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:42:42 PM 842 Views
What speaks against is for me... - 05/01/2016 10:57:44 PM 1257 Views
Re: What speaks against is for me... - 06/01/2016 10:08:35 AM 988 Views
It's all good stuff, like the first book in a good sci-fi/fantasy trilogy! - 07/01/2016 06:44:45 AM 962 Views
I think it's pretty obvious... - 17/01/2016 07:43:19 AM 960 Views

Reply to Message