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I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. Legolas Send a noteboard - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM

View original postLook at from this point of view. When the first move came out all the little boys went home wanting to be either Hans or Luke and al the little girls went home wanting to be Leia. She was a strong confident women who has no problem speaking her mind and did not wait around waiting to be rescued by men but instead played her own critical role in the story. Hell she even stood up to the wookie tha had Finn cowering. No one would say the Leia took a back seat to Luke or Hans but the same cannot be said for Finn the sidekick. I guess in world of social justice girl power trumps racial equality but in the end little boys did not go home wanting to be Finn, they went home still wanting to be Luke.

Finn is plenty strong-willed and independent - if rebelling against the Storm Troopers when those are all he has ever known, while rescuing a rebel pilot along the way, isn't impressive enough for you, he then repeatedly proves his independent thinking and his self-confidence, especially with that bluff about knowing how to disable the shields on the big bad weapon. While kicking ass along the way when it comes down to fights - if he's using completely alien weapons, it may take a few tries but he learns nearly as fast as Rey. And it is after all only the first movie, so he has space left to grow.

There is nothing weak about Finn, unless you count that one detail of not being Rey. Which, you know, deal with it. If Rey had been a guy, you wouldn't have been here complaining that Finn was made weaker or reduced to a sidekick.

View original postAs for helping the plight of women and minorities that is just flawed logic. I fully support making a main character black, the original series did it to a degree. Of the major black characters in the series Finn, the former sanitation worker, is the weakest and I am not sure how making the black man the little buddy to the white girl helps minorities. I do object to the idea that new white characters can only be bad guys and need to look as much like Nazis as possible, make sure you zoom in on those blue eyes and blonde hair. I am sure that was no accident fro the Jewish Abrams.

I have no idea what you're talking about, considering that Kylo Ren has black hair and looks a lot more Jewish than Nazi, if I have to pick one of the two.

Nobody expects this sort of thing to magically cure racism or sexism, but that's not what it's about. It's about giving little kids of racial minorities, or little girls, the idea that they can be the hero of the story just as the little white boy can. As I said to Tom, there aren't many genres where the setting and plot will allow you to be truly colourblind and genderblind, so in cases like Star Wars that do allow it, the opportunity shouldn't be missed.

While we're at it, I don't want to give the idea that I'm scorning the earlier SW movies - Leia did have an important role, and there were coloured characters in important role before. But A New Hope came out in 1977 - in 2015, the time is ripe for a more active female lead.

View original postThe idea that portraying women as a match for men in close combat is not just misguided but it is down right stupid and has the exact opposite affect that is intended. In the real world when girls fight boys they get hurt and they can be hurt badly. Anything that makes it OK for a man to fight a women like she is a man does not help women and presenting women as equals to men in combat does exactly that.

I completely disagree. Men are stronger and taller than women and consequently have an edge in physical combat - on average. Girls getting hurt if they try to take on a guy depends entirely on the girl, and the guy. There's nothing wrong as such with a man fighting a woman like she is a man - the wrongness is in the man trying to hurt someone weaker just because he can, or to impose his will through violence. Which is just as wrong when he does it to a physically weak man, or when it's a woman doing it (don't know if you saw this, but inbetween all the fuss about the NFL's domestic violence policy, the WNBA had an ugly incident of its own).

But if this means that you're finally admitting that your problem is simply with the premise of the next big SW hero being a woman, perhaps we can stop the pretence that this is somehow about Finn, and conclude our whole debate really just boils down to me applauding a female heroine and you deploring it.

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Star Wars : The Force Awakens review (spoiler free) - 17/12/2015 09:18:26 AM 2078 Views
Love your review! I'm seeing it tomorrow night at 9pm. Can't wait! *NM* - 18/12/2015 01:20:16 AM 658 Views
Some (relatively spoiler free) thoughts - 18/12/2015 12:27:22 PM 1138 Views
I pretty much agree with most of that. - 18/12/2015 01:05:16 PM 1092 Views
Agreed, Driver did a great job..... - 19/12/2015 05:46:44 AM 941 Views
Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 03:04:37 PM 1025 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 04:35:49 PM 869 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 05:51:29 PM 905 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 04:44:36 AM 924 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 07:37:39 PM 922 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 19/12/2015 05:30:13 PM 944 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 20/12/2015 09:51:22 AM 1091 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 21/12/2015 06:31:54 PM 1253 Views
The books... - 21/12/2015 09:05:28 PM 998 Views
Re: The books... - 22/12/2015 03:12:52 AM 944 Views
In general agreement ** potential Spoilers ** - 19/12/2015 06:06:23 AM 903 Views
There are books? - 19/12/2015 11:19:07 AM 963 Views
Re: There are books? - 19/12/2015 05:41:45 PM 1018 Views
So Darth Plagieus might still be in? Sweet. - 20/12/2015 04:44:21 AM 880 Views
Palpatine's master? - 20/12/2015 02:25:45 PM 879 Views
I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 09:47:16 PM 913 Views
Re: I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 10:05:49 PM 998 Views
Yeah, I think we're talking about the same one. - 24/12/2015 12:05:57 AM 890 Views
Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens - 19/12/2015 06:07:16 PM 978 Views
I don't think any of that had to be explained. - 19/12/2015 12:16:07 PM 871 Views
I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 19/12/2015 08:22:21 PM 985 Views
Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 06:04:43 AM 1049 Views
Re: Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 08:06:40 PM 853 Views
Re: I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 20/12/2015 10:07:36 AM 959 Views
Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:00:32 PM 1115 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:11:30 PM 997 Views
You're making me reply to two posts - 18/12/2015 03:29:23 PM 990 Views
The death (spoilers) - 22/12/2015 10:30:05 PM 945 Views
Re: You're making me reply to two posts - 29/12/2015 05:24:39 AM 984 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 29/12/2015 05:19:54 AM 924 Views
I have tickets for tonight - 18/12/2015 04:47:17 PM 955 Views
Arbrams impressed me(spoiler free) - 19/12/2015 05:17:42 AM 1052 Views
'Revenge of the Sith' (3rd prequel) was actually a decent movie - 18/12/2015 10:46:52 PM 977 Views
They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 18/12/2015 11:38:36 PM 930 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 12:19:10 AM 1037 Views
Well - 19/12/2015 05:53:56 AM 880 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 07:46:06 AM 1088 Views
people forget they were kids movies *NM* - 19/12/2015 01:17:10 AM 640 Views
Yeah, people take the whole 'Star Wars' thing too seriously - 19/12/2015 02:59:29 AM 993 Views
BTW, Daniel Craig is totally forgiven for Spectre. He was a Stormtrooper (spoilers for role) - 18/12/2015 11:40:44 PM 888 Views
Yip that's true *NM* - 19/12/2015 07:46:59 AM 617 Views
And Simon Pegg was the alien who ran the trading post Rey always went to *NM* - 20/12/2015 02:30:59 PM 719 Views
I got the impression he was actually her boss or contractor - 28/12/2015 12:48:48 PM 1042 Views
Pretty much... - 29/12/2015 12:08:58 AM 942 Views
Absolutely, yes *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:54:52 PM 674 Views
Just saw it! Holy shit, shit, shit, shit.....it was amazing. - 19/12/2015 05:38:44 AM 944 Views
Loved it (Spoilers) - 19/12/2015 06:16:54 AM 896 Views
Fantastic characters, great entertainment, no originality, no logic - 29/12/2015 03:33:43 AM 933 Views
Your Mom has no originality or logic! *NM* - 29/12/2015 11:39:41 AM 665 Views
JJ Abrams should be able to do better than my Mom - 30/12/2015 04:20:54 AM 860 Views
I gave it a B+ overall but I think the characters are its weak spot - 29/12/2015 05:08:15 PM 793 Views
JJ Abrams' movies are character-driven, Lucas' movies are plot-driven - 30/12/2015 04:38:49 AM 848 Views
Lucas has created some of the most iconics chacters in movie history ? - 31/12/2015 02:29:02 PM 863 Views
So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 10:11:01 AM 940 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 07:10:56 PM 1272 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 09:24:08 PM 902 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 31/12/2015 04:58:24 PM 856 Views
It was fun, and I look forward to the next ones, but can't say I was that wowed. - 30/12/2015 09:26:10 PM 886 Views
Why is time for female lead and why does the lef think subtraction is the answer to inequality? - 04/01/2016 01:37:37 PM 727 Views
Because the six other movies had zero female Jedis of any importance? - 04/01/2016 05:58:25 PM 950 Views
Just another check the box movie, then - 04/01/2016 06:02:41 PM 825 Views
Oh, come on. You're really going to complain just because they had a woman and a black guy? - 04/01/2016 11:48:52 PM 904 Views
They are talking abou tmakin ght Gunslinger black - 05/01/2016 02:05:36 PM 861 Views
Yeah, Star Wars is just part of the larger trend. It can't be viewed in a vacuum (pun intended). - 05/01/2016 02:38:34 PM 823 Views
That's not really what I said, you'll note. - 05/01/2016 07:48:08 PM 1031 Views
I don't think it was Disney's business acumen. - 06/01/2016 06:59:46 PM 1097 Views
Wow. That's... sad. - 06/01/2016 09:32:37 PM 949 Views
Re: Wow. That's... sad. - 08/01/2016 03:08:58 AM 933 Views
I am noit sure how well that 7-12 girl demographic will work in merchandising - 08/01/2016 06:30:47 PM 925 Views
Your premise is entirely wrong. - 12/01/2016 05:53:26 AM 860 Views
Actually, they do have a major character who is Latino. - 12/01/2016 07:15:31 PM 879 Views
The culture wars are just about blacks and feminists. - 13/01/2016 02:31:20 AM 909 Views
All that Paul said - 17/01/2016 05:13:59 PM 1504 Views
LOL - 05/01/2016 06:33:50 PM 866 Views
Funny that people use strwmen arguments to make themsleves feel smart - 08/01/2016 04:22:22 PM 937 Views
It's not a straw man - 08/01/2016 04:52:03 PM 910 Views
it was story of a father and son so it makes sense to male leads - 04/01/2016 06:59:33 PM 780 Views
Male leads, sure, but it wasn't just the leads. - 04/01/2016 11:28:12 PM 920 Views
Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 05/01/2016 05:55:51 PM 892 Views
I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM 890 Views
Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 02:52:58 PM 873 Views
Re: Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 05:50:08 PM 887 Views
I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 02:49:44 PM 874 Views
Re: I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 03:26:34 PM 919 Views
The reall issue it looks like Luke sucked as Jedi master - 07/01/2016 07:14:31 PM 851 Views
Sorry, no. - 06/01/2016 06:56:09 PM 929 Views
What a load of crap. - 08/01/2016 10:29:35 AM 840 Views
I only partially agree - 08/01/2016 03:27:10 PM 888 Views
Sorry if science isn't your thing but no what I said is true - 09/01/2016 11:49:15 PM 1005 Views
Re: Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 08/01/2016 10:01:16 AM 804 Views
Well said *NM* - 05/01/2016 12:01:25 PM 680 Views
Because it isn't "subtraction"... - 08/01/2016 09:33:24 AM 862 Views
Of course it is - 09/01/2016 10:19:53 PM 828 Views
Okay so about the big bad guy *spoilers* - 05/01/2016 06:27:37 PM 917 Views
I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:07:26 PM 920 Views
Re: I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:42:42 PM 842 Views
What speaks against is for me... - 05/01/2016 10:57:44 PM 1255 Views
Re: What speaks against is for me... - 06/01/2016 10:08:35 AM 987 Views
It's all good stuff, like the first book in a good sci-fi/fantasy trilogy! - 07/01/2016 06:44:45 AM 959 Views
I think it's pretty obvious... - 17/01/2016 07:43:19 AM 958 Views

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