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I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. Legolas Send a noteboard - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM

View original postLook at from this point of view. When the first move came out all the little boys went home wanting to be either Hans or Luke and al the little girls went home wanting to be Leia. She was a strong confident women who has no problem speaking her mind and did not wait around waiting to be rescued by men but instead played her own critical role in the story. Hell she even stood up to the wookie tha had Finn cowering. No one would say the Leia took a back seat to Luke or Hans but the same cannot be said for Finn the sidekick. I guess in world of social justice girl power trumps racial equality but in the end little boys did not go home wanting to be Finn, they went home still wanting to be Luke.

Finn is plenty strong-willed and independent - if rebelling against the Storm Troopers when those are all he has ever known, while rescuing a rebel pilot along the way, isn't impressive enough for you, he then repeatedly proves his independent thinking and his self-confidence, especially with that bluff about knowing how to disable the shields on the big bad weapon. While kicking ass along the way when it comes down to fights - if he's using completely alien weapons, it may take a few tries but he learns nearly as fast as Rey. And it is after all only the first movie, so he has space left to grow.

There is nothing weak about Finn, unless you count that one detail of not being Rey. Which, you know, deal with it. If Rey had been a guy, you wouldn't have been here complaining that Finn was made weaker or reduced to a sidekick.

View original postAs for helping the plight of women and minorities that is just flawed logic. I fully support making a main character black, the original series did it to a degree. Of the major black characters in the series Finn, the former sanitation worker, is the weakest and I am not sure how making the black man the little buddy to the white girl helps minorities. I do object to the idea that new white characters can only be bad guys and need to look as much like Nazis as possible, make sure you zoom in on those blue eyes and blonde hair. I am sure that was no accident fro the Jewish Abrams.

I have no idea what you're talking about, considering that Kylo Ren has black hair and looks a lot more Jewish than Nazi, if I have to pick one of the two.

Nobody expects this sort of thing to magically cure racism or sexism, but that's not what it's about. It's about giving little kids of racial minorities, or little girls, the idea that they can be the hero of the story just as the little white boy can. As I said to Tom, there aren't many genres where the setting and plot will allow you to be truly colourblind and genderblind, so in cases like Star Wars that do allow it, the opportunity shouldn't be missed.

While we're at it, I don't want to give the idea that I'm scorning the earlier SW movies - Leia did have an important role, and there were coloured characters in important role before. But A New Hope came out in 1977 - in 2015, the time is ripe for a more active female lead.

View original postThe idea that portraying women as a match for men in close combat is not just misguided but it is down right stupid and has the exact opposite affect that is intended. In the real world when girls fight boys they get hurt and they can be hurt badly. Anything that makes it OK for a man to fight a women like she is a man does not help women and presenting women as equals to men in combat does exactly that.

I completely disagree. Men are stronger and taller than women and consequently have an edge in physical combat - on average. Girls getting hurt if they try to take on a guy depends entirely on the girl, and the guy. There's nothing wrong as such with a man fighting a woman like she is a man - the wrongness is in the man trying to hurt someone weaker just because he can, or to impose his will through violence. Which is just as wrong when he does it to a physically weak man, or when it's a woman doing it (don't know if you saw this, but inbetween all the fuss about the NFL's domestic violence policy, the WNBA had an ugly incident of its own).

But if this means that you're finally admitting that your problem is simply with the premise of the next big SW hero being a woman, perhaps we can stop the pretence that this is somehow about Finn, and conclude our whole debate really just boils down to me applauding a female heroine and you deploring it.

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Star Wars : The Force Awakens review (spoiler free) - 17/12/2015 09:18:26 AM 2799 Views
Love your review! I'm seeing it tomorrow night at 9pm. Can't wait! *NM* - 18/12/2015 01:20:16 AM 1080 Views
Some (relatively spoiler free) thoughts - 18/12/2015 12:27:22 PM 1941 Views
I pretty much agree with most of that. - 18/12/2015 01:05:16 PM 1755 Views
Agreed, Driver did a great job..... - 19/12/2015 05:46:44 AM 1641 Views
Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 03:04:37 PM 1721 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 04:35:49 PM 1559 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 05:51:29 PM 1665 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 04:44:36 AM 1632 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 07:37:39 PM 1567 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 19/12/2015 05:30:13 PM 1762 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 20/12/2015 09:51:22 AM 1819 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 21/12/2015 06:31:54 PM 1971 Views
The books... - 21/12/2015 09:05:28 PM 1742 Views
Re: The books... - 22/12/2015 03:12:52 AM 1719 Views
In general agreement ** potential Spoilers ** - 19/12/2015 06:06:23 AM 1609 Views
There are books? - 19/12/2015 11:19:07 AM 1653 Views
Re: There are books? - 19/12/2015 05:41:45 PM 1692 Views
So Darth Plagieus might still be in? Sweet. - 20/12/2015 04:44:21 AM 1580 Views
Palpatine's master? - 20/12/2015 02:25:45 PM 1669 Views
I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 09:47:16 PM 1603 Views
Re: I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 10:05:49 PM 1692 Views
Yeah, I think we're talking about the same one. - 24/12/2015 12:05:57 AM 1587 Views
Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens - 19/12/2015 06:07:16 PM 1692 Views
I don't think any of that had to be explained. - 19/12/2015 12:16:07 PM 1555 Views
I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 19/12/2015 08:22:21 PM 1721 Views
Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 06:04:43 AM 1768 Views
Re: Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 08:06:40 PM 1562 Views
Re: I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 20/12/2015 10:07:36 AM 1738 Views
Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:00:32 PM 1873 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:11:30 PM 1668 Views
You're making me reply to two posts - 18/12/2015 03:29:23 PM 1743 Views
The death (spoilers) - 22/12/2015 10:30:05 PM 1679 Views
Re: You're making me reply to two posts - 29/12/2015 05:24:39 AM 1668 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 29/12/2015 05:19:54 AM 1677 Views
I have tickets for tonight - 18/12/2015 04:47:17 PM 1631 Views
Arbrams impressed me(spoiler free) - 19/12/2015 05:17:42 AM 1769 Views
'Revenge of the Sith' (3rd prequel) was actually a decent movie - 18/12/2015 10:46:52 PM 1658 Views
They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 18/12/2015 11:38:36 PM 1625 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 12:19:10 AM 1809 Views
Well - 19/12/2015 05:53:56 AM 1658 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 07:46:06 AM 1811 Views
people forget they were kids movies *NM* - 19/12/2015 01:17:10 AM 988 Views
Yeah, people take the whole 'Star Wars' thing too seriously - 19/12/2015 02:59:29 AM 1672 Views
BTW, Daniel Craig is totally forgiven for Spectre. He was a Stormtrooper (spoilers for role) - 18/12/2015 11:40:44 PM 1560 Views
Yip that's true *NM* - 19/12/2015 07:46:59 AM 1058 Views
And Simon Pegg was the alien who ran the trading post Rey always went to *NM* - 20/12/2015 02:30:59 PM 1059 Views
I got the impression he was actually her boss or contractor - 28/12/2015 12:48:48 PM 1748 Views
Pretty much... - 29/12/2015 12:08:58 AM 1667 Views
Absolutely, yes *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:54:52 PM 1130 Views
Just saw it! Holy shit, shit, shit, shit.....it was amazing. - 19/12/2015 05:38:44 AM 1701 Views
Loved it (Spoilers) - 19/12/2015 06:16:54 AM 1671 Views
Fantastic characters, great entertainment, no originality, no logic - 29/12/2015 03:33:43 AM 1706 Views
Your Mom has no originality or logic! *NM* - 29/12/2015 11:39:41 AM 1047 Views
JJ Abrams should be able to do better than my Mom - 30/12/2015 04:20:54 AM 1666 Views
I gave it a B+ overall but I think the characters are its weak spot - 29/12/2015 05:08:15 PM 1476 Views
JJ Abrams' movies are character-driven, Lucas' movies are plot-driven - 30/12/2015 04:38:49 AM 1558 Views
Lucas has created some of the most iconics chacters in movie history ? - 31/12/2015 02:29:02 PM 1563 Views
So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 10:11:01 AM 1655 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 07:10:56 PM 1971 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 09:24:08 PM 1603 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 31/12/2015 04:58:24 PM 1541 Views
It was fun, and I look forward to the next ones, but can't say I was that wowed. - 30/12/2015 09:26:10 PM 1650 Views
Why is time for female lead and why does the lef think subtraction is the answer to inequality? - 04/01/2016 01:37:37 PM 1412 Views
Because the six other movies had zero female Jedis of any importance? - 04/01/2016 05:58:25 PM 1651 Views
Just another check the box movie, then - 04/01/2016 06:02:41 PM 1494 Views
Oh, come on. You're really going to complain just because they had a woman and a black guy? - 04/01/2016 11:48:52 PM 1637 Views
They are talking abou tmakin ght Gunslinger black - 05/01/2016 02:05:36 PM 1538 Views
Yeah, Star Wars is just part of the larger trend. It can't be viewed in a vacuum (pun intended). - 05/01/2016 02:38:34 PM 1519 Views
That's not really what I said, you'll note. - 05/01/2016 07:48:08 PM 1704 Views
I don't think it was Disney's business acumen. - 06/01/2016 06:59:46 PM 1767 Views
Wow. That's... sad. - 06/01/2016 09:32:37 PM 1709 Views
Re: Wow. That's... sad. - 08/01/2016 03:08:58 AM 1658 Views
I am noit sure how well that 7-12 girl demographic will work in merchandising - 08/01/2016 06:30:47 PM 1653 Views
Your premise is entirely wrong. - 12/01/2016 05:53:26 AM 1534 Views
Actually, they do have a major character who is Latino. - 12/01/2016 07:15:31 PM 1636 Views
The culture wars are just about blacks and feminists. - 13/01/2016 02:31:20 AM 1607 Views
All that Paul said - 17/01/2016 05:13:59 PM 2302 Views
LOL - 05/01/2016 06:33:50 PM 1525 Views
Funny that people use strwmen arguments to make themsleves feel smart - 08/01/2016 04:22:22 PM 1650 Views
It's not a straw man - 08/01/2016 04:52:03 PM 1603 Views
it was story of a father and son so it makes sense to male leads - 04/01/2016 06:59:33 PM 1469 Views
Male leads, sure, but it wasn't just the leads. - 04/01/2016 11:28:12 PM 1617 Views
Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 05/01/2016 05:55:51 PM 1567 Views
I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM 1663 Views
Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 02:52:58 PM 1703 Views
Re: Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 05:50:08 PM 1620 Views
I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 02:49:44 PM 1576 Views
Re: I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 03:26:34 PM 1606 Views
The reall issue it looks like Luke sucked as Jedi master - 07/01/2016 07:14:31 PM 1553 Views
Sorry, no. - 06/01/2016 06:56:09 PM 1665 Views
What a load of crap. - 08/01/2016 10:29:35 AM 1541 Views
I only partially agree - 08/01/2016 03:27:10 PM 1678 Views
Sorry if science isn't your thing but no what I said is true - 09/01/2016 11:49:15 PM 1694 Views
Re: Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 08/01/2016 10:01:16 AM 1488 Views
Well said *NM* - 05/01/2016 12:01:25 PM 1032 Views
Because it isn't "subtraction"... - 08/01/2016 09:33:24 AM 1562 Views
Of course it is - 09/01/2016 10:19:53 PM 1530 Views
Okay so about the big bad guy *spoilers* - 05/01/2016 06:27:37 PM 1616 Views
I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:07:26 PM 1606 Views
Re: I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:42:42 PM 1537 Views
What speaks against is for me... - 05/01/2016 10:57:44 PM 1946 Views
Re: What speaks against is for me... - 06/01/2016 10:08:35 AM 1773 Views
It's all good stuff, like the first book in a good sci-fi/fantasy trilogy! - 07/01/2016 06:44:45 AM 1630 Views
I think it's pretty obvious... - 17/01/2016 07:43:19 AM 1724 Views

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