Active Users:611 Time:02/05/2026 05:23:54 PM
I only partially agree Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/01/2016 03:27:10 PM

The theoretical maximum for males may be more than it is for females, but that is entirely meaningless in discussing men and women in daily life. Unless you think they're depicting the strongest man vs. the strongest woman in Force Awakens using slim and entirely physically unimposing Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley...

Meh, I'm not so sure about this. It's well established in medicine that men are about 50% stronger than women physically, especially in their upper limbs where the disparity can be up to 100%.

I'm not sure if you're hinting that perhaps Ren is a weaker man because he's geeky and that Rey is fit and strong, so they're basically equal. Physically I mean, not if you consider the Force. Because I find that unlikely. Look, I don't know you but I've had lots of interactions with women since I was a young male. They're no comparison in strength. For instance, as a student two girls would try to throw me into the swimming pool. It's easy to handle them both - we're much much stronger than them. My female friends often say that if their husbands want to overwhelm them playfully there is nothing they can do. Maybe there are some really powerful women out there but Rey is obviously smallish and almost petite. She hardly comes across as some Eastern European Olympic female weight lifter.


Designed by whom? God? Because evolution doesn't work by rules of "design".

Well indeed, and it's also only limited to mammals. Female insects are often much bigger and stronger, for instance. From an evolutionary aspect, men probably adapted to fight one another for genetic dominance and the right to procreate, thus the strength. It's even possible that original males were as strong as women but as partner selection became more fierce, males started to become stronger. Weaker blood lines died off.


And this is not at all genetic (even if we take the numbers for true)! Just because it is so doesn't mean it has to remain so. The problem is you're assuming physical weakness is a part of being feminine, as if that is some genetic truth that can never change. Even genes can change, given the right pressures, but there is no evidence that we need to do that. A lot of women have the potential to be a lot stronger than they are. But from a very young age they are told training their bodies and indulging in physically strenuous tasks is "for boys". So of course you see a lot of women weaker than men. Its a self-fulfilling prophesy.

There are lots of flaws in this too. Males and females have similar untapped strength potentials. Unless you're a construction worker or gym bunny, it's unlikely that you've reached your 'genetic peak'. It's likely that most males and females are much weaker than they could be if they started becoming active. Even if you look at the very best Olympians - the difference in speed and strength between males and females is striking. The best women often don't come close to the strongest men, especially in certain sports disciplines (go look at weight lifting records).

Genes can definitely shift and change, but as they are now, male genes promote extreme levels of testosterone compared to women. The innate cellular strength that testosterone gives to men cannot be matched by almost all women. I have read about smallish guys who have been physically overwhelmed by "amazon" like women who raped them, but this is hardly the norm in any way. If you start giving a woman testosterone injections she will androgenize and probably be as strong as most men, but it's a silly debate, because there is no reason to suspect that Rey/Ren are any different from your average male and female human, even though it's science fiction.


And since Rey and Kylo Ren were using weapons, and non in a wrestling melee, what is the problem?

Okay but at the end it was really direct strength for strength. There are very few men who would ever be stuck in a lock like that with a young woman. I can tell you now that most guys will overwhelm her in seconds. It's the fact that she's a 'jedi' that makes this a non-issue for me. I have no doubt that a female and male Jedi are the same in every way.


Look, resorting to (questionable) biology isn't an answer anyway. You can, and do, see justifications for things like rape, sexual harassment, and beliefs on female intelligence based on "biology". But as a society we firstly do not let the "laws of the jungle" rule us, and secondly, aren't much beholden to them anyway.

But the rules of the Jungle are entirely appropriate in a physical fight to the death. When Ren and Rey fight then that's all that counts in exactly the same was as when two lions or two rabbits fight to the death.


Where was your outrage when the more slight Luke was able to battle the much more physically imposing Vader, then? Or, indeed, Yoda matching Palpatine strength for strength?

When the Force comes into it, nothing else matters. Yoda could probably kill whole armies of men.


Why don't you insist that only the biggest, strongest men be shown as winning physical fights, since "using a weapon" is somehow reason to say that those instances of women abusing men should count for less? And why not use the same standard for naming our leaders? The man who can swat away physical challenges gets to lead, right? After all, some animals do it, so we should too...

Hate to break this to you but we are animals. We are mammals. In many ways we have not outgrown any of our primitive ideals. Why do you think our 'gods' are sports stars and movie stars? Fitness, strength, beauty... those are what mammals respect. I don't agree with this aspect of humanity but it's true - people still dominate weaker people (physical, mental, monetary etc) in every sphere of life. We're a competitive, relentless species with much less compassion than we pretend to have.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
Star Wars : The Force Awakens review (spoiler free) - 17/12/2015 09:18:26 AM 2799 Views
Love your review! I'm seeing it tomorrow night at 9pm. Can't wait! *NM* - 18/12/2015 01:20:16 AM 1080 Views
Some (relatively spoiler free) thoughts - 18/12/2015 12:27:22 PM 1941 Views
I pretty much agree with most of that. - 18/12/2015 01:05:16 PM 1755 Views
Agreed, Driver did a great job..... - 19/12/2015 05:46:44 AM 1641 Views
Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 03:04:37 PM 1721 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 04:35:49 PM 1558 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 05:51:29 PM 1665 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 04:44:36 AM 1632 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 29/12/2015 07:37:39 PM 1567 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 19/12/2015 05:30:13 PM 1762 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 20/12/2015 09:51:22 AM 1819 Views
Re: Replies and spoilers - 21/12/2015 06:31:54 PM 1971 Views
The books... - 21/12/2015 09:05:28 PM 1742 Views
Re: The books... - 22/12/2015 03:12:52 AM 1719 Views
In general agreement ** potential Spoilers ** - 19/12/2015 06:06:23 AM 1609 Views
There are books? - 19/12/2015 11:19:07 AM 1652 Views
Re: There are books? - 19/12/2015 05:41:45 PM 1692 Views
So Darth Plagieus might still be in? Sweet. - 20/12/2015 04:44:21 AM 1580 Views
Palpatine's master? - 20/12/2015 02:25:45 PM 1669 Views
I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 09:47:16 PM 1603 Views
Re: I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 10:05:49 PM 1692 Views
Yeah, I think we're talking about the same one. - 24/12/2015 12:05:57 AM 1587 Views
Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens - 19/12/2015 06:07:16 PM 1692 Views
I don't think any of that had to be explained. - 19/12/2015 12:16:07 PM 1555 Views
I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 19/12/2015 08:22:21 PM 1721 Views
Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 06:04:43 AM 1768 Views
Re: Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 08:06:40 PM 1562 Views
Re: I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 20/12/2015 10:07:36 AM 1738 Views
Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:00:32 PM 1872 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:11:30 PM 1668 Views
You're making me reply to two posts - 18/12/2015 03:29:23 PM 1743 Views
The death (spoilers) - 22/12/2015 10:30:05 PM 1679 Views
Re: You're making me reply to two posts - 29/12/2015 05:24:39 AM 1668 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 29/12/2015 05:19:54 AM 1677 Views
I have tickets for tonight - 18/12/2015 04:47:17 PM 1631 Views
Arbrams impressed me(spoiler free) - 19/12/2015 05:17:42 AM 1769 Views
'Revenge of the Sith' (3rd prequel) was actually a decent movie - 18/12/2015 10:46:52 PM 1658 Views
They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 18/12/2015 11:38:36 PM 1625 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 12:19:10 AM 1809 Views
Well - 19/12/2015 05:53:56 AM 1657 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 07:46:06 AM 1811 Views
people forget they were kids movies *NM* - 19/12/2015 01:17:10 AM 988 Views
Yeah, people take the whole 'Star Wars' thing too seriously - 19/12/2015 02:59:29 AM 1672 Views
BTW, Daniel Craig is totally forgiven for Spectre. He was a Stormtrooper (spoilers for role) - 18/12/2015 11:40:44 PM 1560 Views
Yip that's true *NM* - 19/12/2015 07:46:59 AM 1058 Views
And Simon Pegg was the alien who ran the trading post Rey always went to *NM* - 20/12/2015 02:30:59 PM 1059 Views
I got the impression he was actually her boss or contractor - 28/12/2015 12:48:48 PM 1748 Views
Pretty much... - 29/12/2015 12:08:58 AM 1667 Views
Absolutely, yes *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:54:52 PM 1130 Views
Just saw it! Holy shit, shit, shit, shit.....it was amazing. - 19/12/2015 05:38:44 AM 1701 Views
Loved it (Spoilers) - 19/12/2015 06:16:54 AM 1671 Views
Fantastic characters, great entertainment, no originality, no logic - 29/12/2015 03:33:43 AM 1706 Views
Your Mom has no originality or logic! *NM* - 29/12/2015 11:39:41 AM 1047 Views
JJ Abrams should be able to do better than my Mom - 30/12/2015 04:20:54 AM 1666 Views
I gave it a B+ overall but I think the characters are its weak spot - 29/12/2015 05:08:15 PM 1476 Views
JJ Abrams' movies are character-driven, Lucas' movies are plot-driven - 30/12/2015 04:38:49 AM 1558 Views
Lucas has created some of the most iconics chacters in movie history ? - 31/12/2015 02:29:02 PM 1563 Views
So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 10:11:01 AM 1655 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 07:10:56 PM 1971 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 09:24:08 PM 1603 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 31/12/2015 04:58:24 PM 1541 Views
It was fun, and I look forward to the next ones, but can't say I was that wowed. - 30/12/2015 09:26:10 PM 1650 Views
Why is time for female lead and why does the lef think subtraction is the answer to inequality? - 04/01/2016 01:37:37 PM 1412 Views
Because the six other movies had zero female Jedis of any importance? - 04/01/2016 05:58:25 PM 1650 Views
Just another check the box movie, then - 04/01/2016 06:02:41 PM 1494 Views
Oh, come on. You're really going to complain just because they had a woman and a black guy? - 04/01/2016 11:48:52 PM 1637 Views
They are talking abou tmakin ght Gunslinger black - 05/01/2016 02:05:36 PM 1538 Views
Yeah, Star Wars is just part of the larger trend. It can't be viewed in a vacuum (pun intended). - 05/01/2016 02:38:34 PM 1519 Views
That's not really what I said, you'll note. - 05/01/2016 07:48:08 PM 1703 Views
I don't think it was Disney's business acumen. - 06/01/2016 06:59:46 PM 1767 Views
Wow. That's... sad. - 06/01/2016 09:32:37 PM 1709 Views
Re: Wow. That's... sad. - 08/01/2016 03:08:58 AM 1658 Views
I am noit sure how well that 7-12 girl demographic will work in merchandising - 08/01/2016 06:30:47 PM 1653 Views
Your premise is entirely wrong. - 12/01/2016 05:53:26 AM 1533 Views
Actually, they do have a major character who is Latino. - 12/01/2016 07:15:31 PM 1635 Views
The culture wars are just about blacks and feminists. - 13/01/2016 02:31:20 AM 1607 Views
All that Paul said - 17/01/2016 05:13:59 PM 2301 Views
LOL - 05/01/2016 06:33:50 PM 1524 Views
Funny that people use strwmen arguments to make themsleves feel smart - 08/01/2016 04:22:22 PM 1650 Views
It's not a straw man - 08/01/2016 04:52:03 PM 1602 Views
it was story of a father and son so it makes sense to male leads - 04/01/2016 06:59:33 PM 1469 Views
Male leads, sure, but it wasn't just the leads. - 04/01/2016 11:28:12 PM 1617 Views
Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 05/01/2016 05:55:51 PM 1567 Views
I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM 1662 Views
Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 02:52:58 PM 1703 Views
Re: Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 05:50:08 PM 1620 Views
I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 02:49:44 PM 1576 Views
Re: I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 03:26:34 PM 1606 Views
The reall issue it looks like Luke sucked as Jedi master - 07/01/2016 07:14:31 PM 1553 Views
Sorry, no. - 06/01/2016 06:56:09 PM 1664 Views
What a load of crap. - 08/01/2016 10:29:35 AM 1541 Views
I only partially agree - 08/01/2016 03:27:10 PM 1678 Views
Sorry if science isn't your thing but no what I said is true - 09/01/2016 11:49:15 PM 1694 Views
Re: Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 08/01/2016 10:01:16 AM 1488 Views
Well said *NM* - 05/01/2016 12:01:25 PM 1032 Views
Because it isn't "subtraction"... - 08/01/2016 09:33:24 AM 1562 Views
Of course it is - 09/01/2016 10:19:53 PM 1530 Views
Okay so about the big bad guy *spoilers* - 05/01/2016 06:27:37 PM 1616 Views
I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:07:26 PM 1605 Views
Re: I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:42:42 PM 1537 Views
What speaks against is for me... - 05/01/2016 10:57:44 PM 1946 Views
Re: What speaks against is for me... - 06/01/2016 10:08:35 AM 1773 Views
It's all good stuff, like the first book in a good sci-fi/fantasy trilogy! - 07/01/2016 06:44:45 AM 1630 Views
I think it's pretty obvious... - 17/01/2016 07:43:19 AM 1724 Views

Reply to Message